Double Bass New basses by independent builders vs. old basses

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Mark's post restored - Apparently Nnick isn't the only A** Cl*** on the banks of the Ohio these days... my bad

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Might end up there, I still don't have a sense of what's available for the dough I have.

I do have a penchant for big basses. My Cleveland isn't small and I could handle bigger and the 42 is just fine. I'm a sucker for a big sound....something so big and deep you just HAVE to put spirocores on it to keep it defined.

Phil,
I'm 5'10" with a large 7/8 bass. 43" string and 28.5" lower bout. I had to buy a full size bag as the 7/8 bags were too small.
Of all the basses I've tried, this one just has that sound that hits me where it counts. There is such a punchy quality over the entire bass and the low end really rattles that I can't imagine a smaller axe having.
Still, everytime I bring it back into the house after a gig I'm reminded just how much of a PITA it is. I won't be able to do it forever.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I wonder what thoughts any of you experts would have about buying a new bass from Barrie Kolstein or even an older instrument.

Are his new basses very good and are his vintage instruments competetively priced?

Thanks.....

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Pete,

Barrie sells a few different levels of instruments, from imported instruments merely finished in his shop, to shop basses, to commissioned instruments. IMO, his high-end basses are excellent professional level instruments. I've played several (Carcassi, Testore, Panormo, Montagnana). My bass is the original Fendt model prototype which was exhibited at the 1999 ISB convention. It's also an excellent bass (and one of a kind!)

I've also played the shop basses and while they don't come close to the others I mentioned, I think the sound is comparable to older instruments in the same price range.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

A quick thought about competitively priced basses...

It's been several years since I gave any thought to bass prices, but I remember back then it seemed to me New York prices on carved basses were better (at least on basses I could afford) than you'd see else where in the country because of the number of dealers there. It was just an impression I remember having, I could very well be wrong.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Thanks for that David. I've gone to Barrie over the years, when I was in college I bought a Morelli from him and loved it, I sold it later on when I got married. I stopped playing for a number of years and about 2 years ago bought a hybrid Busetto bass from him, one of the imports that he finishes in the shop.

I have always put my trust in him and assumed he did great work, but my experiences are very narrow. I may consider moving up to a Fendt, which I beleive is a shop bass and not the level of yours. Although I may consider a higher level instruments in his shop be them new or old!...............

 

[Ike Harris]

Pete,

Barrie sells a few different levels of instruments, from imported instruments merely finished in his shop, to shop basses, to commissioned instruments. IMO, his high-end basses are excellent professional level instruments. I've played several (Carcassi, Testore, Panormo, Montagnana). My bass is the original Fendt model prototype which was exhibited at the 1999 ISB convention. It's also an excellent bass (and one of a kind!)

I've also played the shop basses and while they don't come close to the others I mentioned, I think the sound is comparable to older instruments in the same price range.

I have one of those commissioned Panormos - there are THREE here in town - and I would consider it the next best thing to having a pedigreed bass. Plus the advantage of not having the headaches of worrying about constant repairs. It does great in orchestra as well as jazz. David was there when I ordered it at the '01 convention, and I also played his. I don't know about his Fendt but mine has never opened at the seams or had any other structural problems, a good testament to it's quality I'd say. I tend to baby it though, don't play it outside, etc. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend these if you're on the fence about new vs old.

Ike

 

[peterpalmieri]

I have one of those commissioned Panormos - there are THREE here in town - and I would consider it the next best thing to having a pedigreed bass. Plus the advantage of not having the headaches of worrying about constant repairs. It does great in orchestra as well as jazz. David was there when I ordered it at the '01 convention, and I also played his. I don't know about his Fendt but mine has never opened at the seams or had any other structural problems, a good testament to it's quality I'd say. I tend to baby it though, don't play it outside, etc. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend these if you're on the fence about new vs old.

Ike

I am pretty sure Barrie indicated that he stopped making the Panorma, I may be wrong about that. He had a 10yr old one in the shop, he set it up with Spirocores for a guy that was coming in to try it out. He didn't think they complimented the bass and I agreed. But it is a very nice bass regardless especially considering the price.

I was in the shop yesterday and was really impressed. The Fendt is very very nice and about half the price of his 100%made in NY basses. His work done in the shop is really great and reasonable considering the product. Was very impressed by the Prescott Lafaro copy he has...

 

[David Kaczorowski]

I remember that time well, Ike.

I haven't had any problems with my bass either. While a do maintain it, I don't baby it. I've played outside in hot muggy weather and cool dry weather, but never in direct sunlight. I won't do that. I don't have to worry about going from my humidified music room to dry theaters or clubs and having a crack form or seam openning up.

This thread has had me thinking about the problems people have with old basses vs. the apparent good health of new basses. Most of the basses we consider old were built before the advent of climate control. Many were built before cars were invented. I'd imagine the limited means of ensuring a basses health, coupled with rugged modes of transportation, contributed greatly to cracks and other problems seen in old basses. Is it possible that modern well-maintained instruments could remain as healthy as they were when they were new?

 

[Ike Harris]

I am pretty sure Barrie indicated that he stopped making the Panorma, I may be wrong about that. He had a 10yr old one in the shop, he set it up with Spirocores for a guy that was coming in to try it out. He didn't think they complimented the bass and I agreed. But it is a very nice bass regardless especially considering the price.

He may have come to the end of the run of shells he had set aside for that model and not decided to start another line of newer wood to leave that model as is. Don't know, but curious if true. I recently used the bass for an album project and had it strung with Weichs and it just sang. The mediums don't do as well for some reason. I restrung it later with Obligatos to get back to the bowing thing for orchestra season. We'll be (the bass & I) the subject of an upcoming article(by the engineer in that project, TB's Uncle Dave Martin) for a recording magazine about miking an upright for the studio - let you know when it's out. That's his camera work on my avatar BTW.

Ike

 

[Wilbyman]

Well, I'll tag on this thread. It seems to me that Phil is looking for prime jazz bass (amplified or not), which is probably significantly different from a semi-pedigree'd orchestral bass, both in tonal quality and setup...(right?)

That being said, are there any luthiers/dealers that are particularly well known for higher caliber jazz basses, both in instrument selection and setup?

From my experience at the Bass Cellar, I think Andy is more focused on orchestral type instruments and an orchestral type setup.

W

 

[toman]

I remember that time well, Ike.

I haven't had any problems with my bass either. While a do maintain it, I don't baby it. I've played outside in hot muggy weather and cool dry weather, but never in direct sunlight. I won't do that. I don't have to worry about going from my humidified music room to dry theaters or clubs and having a crack form or seam openning up.

This thread has had me thinking about the problems people have with old basses vs. the apparent good health of new basses. Most of the basses we consider old were built before the advent of climate control. Many were built before cars were invented. I'd imagine the limited means of ensuring a basses health, coupled with rugged modes of transportation, contributed greatly to cracks and other problems seen in old basses. Is it possible that modern well-maintained instruments could remain as healthy as they were when they were new?

I've wondered about this a lot, and to add to it, how long have we had the awesome cases that we do now? It wasn't that long ago that basses were hauled around in canvas sacks!

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Sure, set-ups are a personal thing. But I never realized there was a difference between a good jazz bass and an orchestra bass.

Who was it, famous jazz player, that played a Guadagnini? I can't think of his name, but what was he thinking?

 

[Wilbyman]

Sure, set-ups are a personal thing. But I never realized there was a difference between a good jazz bass and an orchestra bass.

Who was it, famous jazz player, that played a Guadagnini? I can't think of his name, but what was he thinking?

Hmm, I have heard a few basses which were excellent pizz quarter note generators and not as good with the bow. And vice versa. Dunno bout you though.

 

[Uncletoad]

The range of instruments acceptable for Jazz musicians is much larger than the range acceptable for Orchestral musicians.

I'm looking for the best sounding bass I can afford and it better roar with the bow even though nobody wants to hear me do it. It's what the thing was built for in the first place. The best sounding Jazz Bass tones I've heard were made with basses that could play anything and always sound great.

Pizz setup and arco setup are different but I don't really need that to know if a bass fits me or not. I think that relationship is transcendent of setup. One just "knows".

That said I'm armed with some of my favorite strings to help me be sure. Nice to have a landmark that doesn't move to judge things by.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Hmm, I have heard a few basses which were excellent pizz quarter note generators and not as good with the bow. And vice versa. Dunno bout you though.

I've heard/played plenty of low end basses that sound ok played pizz, but left a lot to be desired for arco/orchestral playing. The only basses I ever heard/played that were great with the bow but sounded poor when played arco were basses that needed a different set of strings. I don't think it's possible for a bass to sound good with the bow and not pizz (generally speaking leaving strings out of the equation.)

When a bass doesn't sound good played pizz., but sounds good arco it's almost always due to the strings. Maybe the strings are too stiff, or exert too much tension on the top. Or, it could be that it's a naturally very dark sounding bass set-up with dark strings resulting in boomy ill-defined notes. Different strings would fix that right up.

 

[Paul Warburton]

On the New, I have played Basses from Custom builds to Shop made Basses. Each Bass regardless of beauty, craftsmanship, woods, model etc etc, has its own sound.

That said, it's no difference than the old Basses are as far as good and bad or more accurately, what's best for you for what you want the Bass to do.

On the Arco vs. Pizz shopping, a Bassist playing Symphony stuff will have a harder time in the lower ranges of the price scale as that music is demanding and also must respond well with the Bow. You have in general more Basses that Pizz well (as most play with an amp anyway) than you have Basses that Bow well.

This is why Student grade shop Basses like Juzek's or other German Basses sell for less than modern Italian Basses of a similar age. The Italian Basses were more often hand made to play with the Bow while the Juzek imports were ordered to meet a price point mainly for the School supply business.

I know of a few good German/Czech Basses labeled or not that work ok for an orchestra but are killer Jazz basses. These are on the upper end of the Germanic Bass scale of the last 60-120 years. Condition wise though like I mentioned earlier may suit you but may not pass inspection for others looking for expert work inside. The German Shop Basses are hit and miss sound and condition wise but there are so many out there, it's not so hard to find one.

For me, I would prefer a modern handmade Italian Bass that has a refined tone that can Pizz or Bow but may be only 30-40 years old. These prices (in good repair) will start at about where the best of the Germanic stock end (if properly priced). Also, they will go up in value more than a common Shop Bass.

On the new Basses again, some makers make a Bass from time to time and then show it. That is about as good as you can get because you will know if you like it off the bat or not. If it sounds good, it should get better with age if also made well. If the sound isn't what you like, don't' buy it hoping it will change in your favor. You may not live long enough to find out for one and second, it just might never be the sound you are looking for.

Like all markets today from Homes, to Cars to Clothing to Basses. There is plenty available and it's a Buyers market. Shop carefully. If in that time of shopping your tastes change go with the flow (or with the Force, up to you.. lol .)

Toad listen to your uncle Ken.

 

[Uncletoad]

Toad listen to your uncle Ken.

I understand and obey Obiwan.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I don't think it's possible for a bass to sound good with the bow and not pizz (generally speaking leaving strings out of the equation.

When a bass doesn't sound good played pizz., but sounds good arco it's almost always due to the strings. Maybe the strings are too stiff, or exert too much tension on the top. Or, it could be that it's a naturally very dark sounding bass set-up with dark strings resulting in boomy ill-defined notes. Different strings would fix that right up.

Maybe on some basses, but on an album I produced a couple of years ago, the bassist played a beautiful 19th century Italian bass, gorgeous arco sound, but trying to get that big thick, low end pizz to sit in the mix was really difficult, and he was using weichs, a generally very bright string. That bass had so much low end that it was tough to get the definition needed for jazz.

 

[Uncletoad]

Maybe on some basses, but on an album I produced a couple of years ago, the bassist played a beautiful 19th century Italian bass, gorgeous arco sound, but trying to get that big thick, low end pizz to sit in the mix was really difficult, and he was using weichs, a generally very bright string. That bass had so much low end that it was tough to get the definition needed for jazz.

That's still not a bass thing. That's a string and setup thing. I'd wager Mittels would have cleaned that right up. Light strings down low on a boomy bass is gonna sound pretty boomy.

edit: Nice problem to have.