Ron Carter labella`s doesn`t bow well. I had nylon wrapped Pirastro Pizzicato guts and they were serious PITA under the bow. It suprises me that somehow Gamut makes RD`s pleasing under the bow. It would be interesting to hear if nylon wrapped lyon`s are like this too.
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Double Bass New Gamut Red Diamond Gut Strings
- Thread starter Earl
- Start date
The Ron Carter nylons are what I assumed everyone meant by "impossible to bow" when referring to spiros. On a friends bass who studies with ron, they sound fine for practicing and jazz arco but would be horrible in the orchestra.
No comment on the red diamonds. If I bowed the DG when I had them I don't remember.
I did a previous post a number of months ago about the bowing of Red Diamonds. I found that using a tighter bow, faster bow speed with a harder rosin worked pretty well. If you have problems bowing Spirocores, then you will have a worse time with these. I’ve got 35 years of classical bass playing experience and I have the strings on a very good instrument. I believe that the quality of bass and bow do have a lot to do with how well these strings will bow. I certainly wouldn’t use them for Orchestra work, but they worked well playing Messiah and I would use them on a similar period piece if everyone else was using gut strings. Next time I put them on my bass I will have to make a demo video. No time at the present, maybe in a couple of months or at least when Messiah happens again in December.
I do remember that post of yours. I too am an orchestra player crossing over into jazz and bluegrass frequently. it's interesting that you say you would not want to do all of your Orchestra work on these red diamond strings. I was actually hoping that we could...
Bowability might depend on the structure of the surface of the synthetics.
A totally smooth surface might not work at all for bowing (maybe if some rosin sticks to the string at the bowing area), a rougher surface might work better. Rosin on the string at the whole bowing area would be helpful. But I think the metal surface bow a lot better, probably mainly because of the transfer of the friction heat when the bow slips on the string, but also because the surface of metal wrapped strings is rougher than most synthetics and the rosin will stick better.
But this is mainly speculation.
A totally smooth surface might not work at all for bowing (maybe if some rosin sticks to the string at the bowing area), a rougher surface might work better. Rosin on the string at the whole bowing area would be helpful. But I think the metal surface bow a lot better, probably mainly because of the transfer of the friction heat when the bow slips on the string, but also because the surface of metal wrapped strings is rougher than most synthetics and the rosin will stick better.
But this is mainly speculation.
To be honest, I`m just a hack who tried to bow the black labellas as a fresh beginner, but I nowadays get a decent sound out of spiros and plain gut, which I`m bowing all the time. Still, nylon wrapped Pirastro guts were a no-no, Velvet Garbos are easier to bow for me.
It might work in a pinch, but I probably fall back on security of playing and I don’t have that sense of security bowing these strings right now. I’m also fortunate that I have 3 nice basses to use so one is used for orchestra, one for jazz and one with solo strings. As I mentioned, I used them for a Messiah performance and was really satisfied - but the rest of the string players were also using gut strings on period instruments. They work great with bluegrass and Jazz - my concept for jazz has that more full, round sound with a solid fundamental attack and pulse, so they really speak to my heart. Give them a try, see what you think.
Yes, however it may be slightly smaller now than the numbers below published by Gamut. I haven't put calipers on them to verify, but the the original D and G I was sent had a different winding on them (you can follow my thread a couple pages back from here). The replacements they sent me feel (and look) much better than before.
The tension balance and stiffness issues on the nylon wrapped strings seems to have gone away with the new set they sent me.
String Gauge Approximate Tension
G-1 2.50mm ( .098”) (50PM) 23Kg (52.9Lb)
D-2 3.34mm (.131”) (67PM) 22Kg (48.5Lb)
A-3 2.60mm (.102”) (52PM) 20Kg (44Lb)
E-4 3.10mm (.122”) (62PM) 18Kg (39.6Lb)
Thank you... I really appreciate the updates.
These are very tempting strings for me. I'll be very interested in how they work out for you and others here that use them.
These are very tempting strings for me. I'll be very interested in how they work out for you and others here that use them.
Hmmm, I just visited the Gamut website...
All of the specific references menus that I can find on the Gamut home web page for the Red Diamond Gut strings are not available on their normal website pages. A person can cycle through to what appears to be a front page link, but once there, the "GET YOUR SET RIGHT NOW THROUGH THIS LINK" button is not functional.
Has something changed, or is this how the website has always been?
Does a person need to contact Gamut directly to acquire the Red Diamond Gut strings?
All of the specific references menus that I can find on the Gamut home web page for the Red Diamond Gut strings are not available on their normal website pages. A person can cycle through to what appears to be a front page link, but once there, the "GET YOUR SET RIGHT NOW THROUGH THIS LINK" button is not functional.
Has something changed, or is this how the website has always been?
Does a person need to contact Gamut directly to acquire the Red Diamond Gut strings?
Thier website isn't great. Sometimes when they are out of stock it behaves that way. However thier customer service is great. Shoot them an email and I'm certain they will help you.
Ok, great. Thanks.
My current thinking now is that I'll probably go this direction for strings... Just not sure when.
I do have a question for you since you're experiencing these strings... How are the Red Diamond Guts for volume, especially in the lower register?
Background: I really like my current synthetic mixed set and they're great both plugged in and acoustically for both slap/pizz and arco. The lower register in particular is clear and has balanced volume with the high register, and the whole mixed set is especially good acoustically when playing with a small well experienced group. But when I'm playing acoustically with a larger and/or mixed-level group, I'm continually not able to hear my lower register well enough to manage intonation, so I often end up avoiding the lowest string(s) as I improvise my bass lines (which greatly limits what I could be doing).
I do have some typical "old musician" hearing loss, so that could be part of this issue.
Is this lower register volume problem something that guts and/or specifically the Red Diamond Guts will solve?
Or am I asking too much of strings in general, and perhaps should make a regular habit of using my amp at least as a personal (or perhaps IEM) monitor?
Edit: I may see part of the answer to this in another current TB thread here.
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The Red Diamonds are loud acoustically. They aren't as loud as something like Velvet Garbos, but louder than plain gut. Depending on what you are used to using, gut are often louder out in front as compared to hybrids or synthetics. You aren't always going to perceive that standing with the bass. To give you a little bit more perspective (think I already talked about this earlier), I was playing Innovation Golden Slaps prior to the Reds. They are considerably louder, and of course have much more depth than the Slaps did.
My experience with any gut string is that you start to get diminishing returns the higher the note up the string, with the exception of a gut G. Gut G sings all the way up into thumb. The Reds perform better than plain gut with respect to this, especially on the A string with it being copper wound.
On my bass they balance well across all 4 strings. There are so many variables that contribute to what you can and can't hear in a group setting though. I'd hate to say these strings will make that better or worse for you, especially if you aren't used to gut.
If you sift through the last few pages, I give a pretty detailed running commentary on my experience with them. You might find more information there.
Thank you very much, this helps a lot... Especially your perspective related to the GoldenSlaps, since I'm using the similar SilverSlaps for my E and A, and also your experience with the Red Diamonds compared to plain gut.
I think I'll muddle through this volume issue (perhaps using my amp as a personal monitor) with my current string mix until either they're exhausted or until I can't stand it any longer, and then I'll place an order for the Red Diamond Guts.
I'll continue following this thread carefully, great information is here!
Thanks again!
I think I'll muddle through this volume issue (perhaps using my amp as a personal monitor) with my current string mix until either they're exhausted or until I can't stand it any longer, and then I'll place an order for the Red Diamond Guts.
I'll continue following this thread carefully, great information is here!
Thanks again!
Nearly a month down the road, any new thoughts on the Red Diamond guts regarding wear and tear?
Update. My A string developed a separation in the winding about 3 weeks ago. I figured it was only a matter of time before it failed. Last night I picked the bass for some recording stuff at home, and the A was shot - vibrating and distorting right at the separation. It's disappointing because I do really love these strings.
I swapped the E and A with some Golden Slaps. That's when I noticed that the round wounds are eating the board pretty well too. That was not a surprise though.
Still love the strings, but I'm just going with the D and G for now. I don't plan on replacing the E and A.
With windings failing on both the copper and nylon in what I would consider a short span, I don't think I'd invest in a second set. It's too much money for me to keep throwing away. Especially when plain gut lasts forever. I hope the D and G hang on for a long time though.
The durability was always my concern with these. Too bad because I love the tone, tension, and projection. I was hoping to get an album recorded with them. My love/hate relationship with wound gut continues.
pics
I swapped the E and A with some Golden Slaps. That's when I noticed that the round wounds are eating the board pretty well too. That was not a surprise though.
Still love the strings, but I'm just going with the D and G for now. I don't plan on replacing the E and A.
With windings failing on both the copper and nylon in what I would consider a short span, I don't think I'd invest in a second set. It's too much money for me to keep throwing away. Especially when plain gut lasts forever. I hope the D and G hang on for a long time though.
The durability was always my concern with these. Too bad because I love the tone, tension, and projection. I was hoping to get an album recorded with them. My love/hate relationship with wound gut continues.
pics
I have a medium pistoy A with a set of RD's right now on my Czech hybrid following my bass taking a tumble damaging the pistoy d and lyon g that were on there before. I have to say that I am pretty happy with the tone and balance that I'm getting right now. I'm thinking that I may stick a eudoxa E in there eventually, but for now I'm happy.
