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Good stuff. Just goes to show that this is very much a team sport.

I'm mostly through it and into the load-bearing harmony bits. I was sorta wanting a little more detail into some phrasing choices of where you guys chose to repeat a motif or move on to the next phrase, but that would've made for a very long video and you guys didn't have the time to get in the weeds.
 
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Understand - it's always tough to decide what to leave out. I would be happy to discuss any of that stuff WRT the transcription at any length that anyone is interested in. In general, with motives I tend to correspond to the "Brahms rule", a motive may be repeated 3 times, but after that point it must be varied at least.
 
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Finally got through the Duet vid. Wow! That IS a long one! Great lesson, all around!

It was useful hearing your and John's take and seeing the transcription as you took ideas from one another and "handled" conflicts and differences of ideas, like the ending for instance. And then I found the harmonic analysis very interesting too, particularly, because when I got serious about this tune, I struggled with the changes. I think, because there are a lot of different reharms and many of them I didn't care for because they didn't have the right amount of movement for my taste. Eventually, I cobbed together two different recordings from Miles, one that includes that descending line for the first four bars of the bridge, and another that uses a III-7b5 chord for the "climax" tension chord, but I also like the bIV there.

Thanks for your contribution to jazz!
 
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Thanks, CZ. It did take awhile, especially the transcription. And you're right that it's hard to find the right words to describe the process of what you were "thinking" when most of the time you weren't "thinking" anything at all - just trying to stay open to what seems to be going on and being willing to go with it for better or worse. Most of the time when I'm playing well I have no earthly idea what the name of any note Im playing is, nor do I care.

Recently I saw a documentary about training in sports. As they are hitting more and more the bounderies of the physical aspects, their focus goes to working on the mindset (that drives the body and manages its crisis behaviour). One observation was that during training the brain is not building up new connections but rather simplifying the existing. The reduced complexity in dealing with situational behaviour allows more speed and more effective results.

In music that would be: building a repertoire of 'beautiful sounding stuff' and have it ready to kick it in accordingly ... The decisions for what (not) to do in a given situation have always puzzled me; as an expression of oneself on the quest for beauty, finding the 'right thing' to do on the spot. It is here where the secret of 'creativity' is hiding.
A lot of good stuff happens because of the need to find a 'good' response to accidents. We found out about antibiotics that way.

So again: it is really great to see you two 'in process', even when it is reflected (and therefore a reduced version of what could be put into words and notes) afterwards.
Thank you for opening that bottle. It is very educative and helpful. And again: the last part, with you playing the variety of possible changes was very informative ...
You may extend on how to interpret the choice of harmony for doing those beautiful lines that reacts on whats going on around.

I would be happy to witness more of that ...

__edit:
of course we do spend our time on arpeggios in the practise room ... and hey: it gets easier every time. But it also helps a lot knowing what to think while you feel ...
 
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It was useful hearing your and John's take and seeing the transcription as you took ideas from one another and "handled" conflicts and differences of ideas, like the ending for instance.

With endings, I can't explain it but I have very strong feelings about proportion and when it is OK to end. Maybe it's a need for evenness, maybe it's a need for balance, maybe it's something else. But looking back, I still feel that that tune ended exactly when it should have. I know that John felt differently, but he's too much of a gentleman to make a scene when I kept playing, so... :D

...when I got serious about this tune, I struggled with the changes. I think, because there are a lot of different reharms and many of them I didn't care for because they didn't have the right amount of movement for my taste. Eventually, I cobbed together two different recordings from Miles, one that includes that descending line for the first four bars of the bridge, and another that uses a III-7b5 chord for the "climax" tension chord, but I also like the bIV there.

This brings up another interesting point - namely that of harmonic rhythm. I find many jazz reharms distasteful because they often seem to insert chords because they can without consideration for how janky the harmonic rhythm feels when the flow goes from chord chord chord chord to chordchordchordchordchord and back again. It doesn't have to remain constant, but it is a part of the flow, and I feel this is worthy of consideration, even if only on the intuitive level of knowing when it feels right. One of my personal pet annoyances in jazz is chains of sideslipping ii-V's inserted into a progression that I don't feel needs them. The third 8 bar phrase of "Blackbird" strikes me this way; it doesn't need all of those ii chords, and it takes a pretty great melodic player to cover those changes without simply sequencing the same idea down in half steps. I much prefer the simpler path on this and most tunes. The rick of playing the V of the ii-V's is a more natural sound to my ear, which is why I tend to do it more often than not.

But cobbling together your own harmonization of any tune is a great practice to get into. By doing this, you're getting deeper into the tune and coming up with something that feels right to you, which is always good.

Recently I saw a documentary about training in sports. As they are hitting more and more the bounderies of the physical aspects, their focus goes to working on the mindset (that drives the body and manages its crisis behaviour). One observation was that during training the brain is not building up new connections but rather simplifying the existing. The reduced complexity in dealing with situational behaviour allows more speed and more effective results.

I think this is pretty much on point. By simplifying you are not only making existing pathways clearer and easier to implement, but you are also opening the door for variation/deviation from a predetermined set of actions that is on autopilot; programming your own safety net or safety zone, so to speak, so that you can afford to take chances spinning variations on it.

And again: the last part, with you playing the variety of possible changes was very informative ...
You may extend on how to interpret the choice of harmony for doing those beautiful lines that reacts on whats going on around.

Kind of like the above, when you have ingrained the simplest path through the changes that still supports the roof, the many variations flow from that. In the first line of the tune, the simplest changes just sound "F Major". In the practice room, you might practice many different tricks for elaborating static tonalities that last 4 bars in a melodic sense. The second set of changes that go I - IV - iii - V7/ii- ii - V7 - I are a perfect example of a "round trip turnaround", or what I think of as "treading water" harmonically. You are free to play more imaginary changes than are actually there at any given time if you feel it gives your line more forward motion, just as you are free to mentally simplify changes by eliminating the decorative changes and play the big picture. The beauty of it is that each line is its own layer of counterpoint, and that different layers of conception can be happening at the same time. If the changes are organic, the busy harmony is just one possible outcome of the static harmony; so if one player decides to go totally static and play a dominant pedal over a tonic harmony while the other player decides to outline the busiest set of changes he or she can think of, it all still works as long as the resolution happens together.

The following short example of the first line 8 bars of the song illustrates this (I hope):
 

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In the short example above, one player was outlining a very busy set of changes while the other was simplifying the changes down to their essence, and it still works because both layers are headed to the same resolution. Understanding this big picture paradigm makes it easier to make decisions in the moment because it's all about the big picture resolutions.

In the short example below, the roles are reversed: the soloing player takes the simple path while the accompanying player plays the busy changes. It all still works because of the resolution:
 

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So, another possible topic for you to tackle - bassist plays one set of changes, harmonist plays another. Most of the time, as a bass player, I don't think it matters much if I cop the 3rd, 7th, or 9th on one, but sometimes it does - I hear them... go "opps" and start to think "what I should play the next chorus?" I'm talking about very developed players who don't need to hear the root on one to know where they are.

Another possible vid for you: this last Aebersold concert with Dave Liebman, Steve Allee, and Rufus; Jason Tieman on drums? Man, I'd give my left arm to hear what those guys were thinking during that performance because, as near as I can tell, that was as close to in person that I've gotten to a quartet that realized "instantaneous improvisation". Liebman and Allee were great, but man, Rufus told me why people respect him in that performance. He kept it DOWN! Very musically. A once in a lifetime experience for me. Probably one in several decades for Liebman and Rufus, but, there aren't that many good recordings of this interaction. I came away thinking it was jazz at its highest/finest/grandest level, and something way down the road to aspire to.
 
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That concert was great. BTW, that was Carl Allen on drums, and he provided the swirling special sauce that kicked all of those guys into high gear. :) I came away most impressed with Allee, because I think he went the farthest out of his comfort zone to get there (especially on that free/pointillistic version of ATTYA), and the results were spectacular. Liebman was just being his usual great self, and Rufus was setting up shop with Carl.
 
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With endings, I can't explain it but I have very strong feelings about proportion and when it is OK to end. Maybe it's a need for evenness, maybe it's a need for balance, maybe it's something else. But looking back, I still feel that that tune ended exactly when it should have. I know that John felt differently, but he's too much of a gentleman to make a scene when I kept playing, so... :D



This brings up another interesting point - namely that of harmonic rhythm. I find many jazz reharms distasteful because they often seem to insert chords because they can without consideration for how janky the harmonic rhythm feels when the flow goes from chord chord chord chord to chordchordchordchordchord and back again. It doesn't have to remain constant, but it is a part of the flow, and I feel this is worthy of consideration, even if only on the intuitive level of knowing when it feels right. One of my personal pet annoyances in jazz is chains of sideslipping ii-V's inserted into a progression that I don't feel needs them. The third 8 bar phrase of "Blackbird" strikes me this way; it doesn't need all of those ii chords, and it takes a pretty great melodic player to cover those changes without simply sequencing the same idea down in half steps. I much prefer the simpler path on this and most tunes. The rick of playing the V of the ii-V's is a more natural sound to my ear, which is why I tend to do it more often than not.

But cobbling together your own harmonization of any tune is a great practice to get into. By doing this, you're getting deeper into the tune and coming up with something that feels right to you, which is always good.



I think this is pretty much on point. By simplifying you are not only making existing pathways clearer and easier to implement, but you are also opening the door for variation/deviation from a predetermined set of actions that is on autopilot; programming your own safety net or safety zone, so to speak, so that you can afford to take chances spinning variations on it.



Kind of like the above, when you have ingrained the simplest path through the changes that still supports the roof, the many variations flow from that. In the first line of the tune, the simplest changes just sound "F Major". In the practice room, you might practice many different tricks for elaborating static tonalities that last 4 bars in a melodic sense. The second set of changes that go I - IV - iii - V7/ii- ii - V7 - I are a perfect example of a "round trip turnaround", or what I think of as "treading water" harmonically. You are free to play more imaginary changes than are actually there at any given time if you feel it gives your line more forward motion, just as you are free to mentally simplify changes by eliminating the decorative changes and play the big picture. The beauty of it is that each line is its own layer of counterpoint, and that different layers of conception can be happening at the same time. If the changes are organic, the busy harmony is just one possible outcome of the static harmony; so if one player decides to go totally static and play a dominant pedal over a tonic harmony while the other player decides to outline the busiest set of changes he or she can think of, it all still works as long as the resolution happens together.

The following short example of the first line 8 bars of the song illustrates this (I hope):

I also enjoyed the video, especially your's and John's wonderful and spontaneous interplay; just two great players having fun playing with, against, and off of each other! I also liked your singing on the instructional part: kind of a Chet Baker-ish wistful melancholy that fits the lyrics nicely. A second career, perhaps?

I'm of two minds about the analysis. On the one hand, I really appreciated your discussion of the "load-bearing" aspects of the harmony and leaving those intact, something that can be easily overlooked in the search for "complexity/originality." On the other hand, for me, discussions of theory often seem to get over-involved in the technical aspects to the exclusion of the sonic/aural aspects. I understand the importance of a knowledge of theory to explain what's going on in a jazz performance, but for me, theory provides a set of possible choices or paths, it's still the ear and (ultimately!) the heart that chooses which ones to follow. In the performance part of the video, it seemed to me that you guys were totally in that ear/heart space. In the analysis section, after a while it seemed like trying to put boxes around something that came unboxed; or perhaps more accurately, putting small boxes around something that came out of a very large box.
 
I also enjoyed the video, especially your's and John's wonderful and spontaneous interplay; just two great players having fun playing with, against, and off of each other! I also liked your singing on the instructional part: kind of a Chet Baker-ish wistful melancholy that fits the lyrics nicely. A second career, perhaps?

No thank you! :) I know too many real singers to go there. I've had to sing in bands when I was younger because we I was already in them and the group needed a singer, but i don't enjoy singing in public. For learning to play, though, it's indispensable. And I love to sing when no one is around.

... for me, discussions of theory often seem to get over-involved in the technical aspects to the exclusion of the sonic/aural aspects. I understand the importance of a knowledge of theory to explain what's going on in a jazz performance, but for me, theory provides a set of possible choices or paths, it's still the ear and (ultimately!) the heart that chooses which ones to follow. In the performance part of the video, it seemed to me that you guys were totally in that ear/heart space. In the analysis section, after a while it seemed like trying to put boxes around something that came unboxed; or perhaps more accurately, putting small boxes around something that came out of a very large box.

You are absolutely correct. I've been teaching theory - both traditional and jazz theory - for 20 years now, and I think you just perfectly nailed the essence of theory. In my traditional classes, i often describe it as forensic pathology: the body is laid out on the stainless steel table, and you take it apart to see what it's made of... and if you're on TV, you are surrounded by blue light and people who are far more attractive than is likely in real life, and you solve crimes in an epic way by determining who and what killed the person on the table. :D

But in truth, even if all that were true, dissecting the body doesn't tell you anything about the soul of the person who inhabited it as their vehicle. In music, as in life. It's very limited by nature. And you are right about the flow state that John and I were both in during the performance - that can hardly be described in a meaningful way other than to mention it. On the other hand, I hope that the transcription will be helpful in illuminating the "what" of the music we ended up playing, and that inferences can be drawn from that. The most important one, in my opinion, is the old axiom about the relationship between art and science: Science facilitates art, and art gives science a meaningful medium. Either without the other wouldn't really be worth much.

In music, part of the flow state of any musician is the path that leads to it and enables it - the hours/days/months/years of practice that gives the performer the tools to create intricate and detailed music by making general big picture choices in the moment.There was a spot in the video where John asked me, "those are groupings of what, exactly?" My answer would have been better if I'd had time to think about it, but I answered that they were groups of 9 triplets playing one big tonality over the top of a moving harmony. This is true, but what made the line more interesting to me is the fact that groupings of 9 triplets equals a 3-beat-long motive, and when played over 4/4, this creates a shifting hemiola effect, creating rhythmic tension in addition to the harmonic tension. The big picture decision was pre-verbal, but could have been expressed as "repeated dominant motive phrased over the barline"; the next big picture decision could have been expressed as "when to get off the train" and get back into the regular flow of the music playing the changes in 4/4.

But in order for those big picture decisions to lead to meaningful details, the person making them would have to have practiced those kinds of gestures consciously. Back in my piano playing days, I had practiced something I thought of only as "cross phrasing triplet lines", an idea stolen from listening to a lot of Fred Hersch records. I don't know if I had played that exact line before in that spot of that tune, but that gesture in general was a 'thing" in my mind from experience, and without all the practicing of the general concept, it would never have come out.
 
The aspect of my professional life is definitely creeping into my approach to music and my perspective. There's definitely a degree of Cargo Cult mentality when it comes to jazz. It's ubiquitous that if you mimic what the legends do, that somehow you will attain the same transcendence they did. The fact of the matter is that for the most part, we have no idea how they came to their ideas.

As beautifully as Paul Desmond played, he was extremely self critical of himself and seemed generally unsatisfied with his own playing despite the platitudes he was getting. The bar keeps rising for everybody, including the greats - which is why I really appreciate camps like Aebersolds and Jazz Camp West (especially) where teachers mingle with the students and the teacher/student relationships start to get fuzzy. The reason we love JCW so much is that in some cases, teachers are very much learning from the students and get inspired by them in a big way. Hanging with Tootie Heath last year as artist-in-residence, it was almost as if he was returning to show some of the brazilian stuff he had learned from the previous visit to JCW. I got to see first him of him learning some new stuff from a fellow student (who was an great drummer in his own right).

Anyhoo, I really like your "descriptive vs. prescriptive" description of how theory is applied.
 
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Thanks for all of the nice comments! I think this cartoon implies the theoretical aspects of the duet . . .

one-ticket-really-matryoshka.png
 
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So here's the deep part — I think the theory is like that Russian doll in the cartoon. She says she just needs one ticket, but the funny part is that you know there are twenty other little dolls stacked up inside, each more intricate than the one before.

We all know that the harmony is only Fmaj7 to C7, or Gmin7 to C7 or whatever. But stacked up underneath the outer shell of the harmony are countless other variations.

***End Russian Doll analogy***

I'm going for a walk now.
 
Just a couple of extra notes about the transcription and "where things came from":

I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge Michael Moore for my arpeggios in bars 65-67 and again in 103-104. Those are things that I practiced a million times when I was taking lessons with him. In bar 68, I play a diminished arpeggio that I also practiced as part of Michael's approach. I should also mention that those descending ii-Vs are what they play on the Miles Davis: In Person, Friday & Saturday Night at the Blackhawk album.

Regarding the line that we discussed in bars 89-91: I now can place the origin of that lick (in my experiences) with Jimmy Raney, the great guitarist from Louisville. When I used to play with Jimmy and he would do the tune "I'll Remember April," he would play something similar in bars 5-8 of that tune: Gmin, Gminb6, Gmin6, Gmin7. But—by hitting and holding the Eb in bar 90, it gave Chris a chance to play any number of changes (Gminb6, F#dim, D7b9, Abmin7) which would then determine the rest of the phrase. On this video, since Chris played an F# in bar 90, it changed the sound to a D7b9 (I played Eb, Chris played F#). And it all seemed to work out :)

So, I guess I can pin down where I first heard or learned a lot of the things I play, but since I've practiced those things quite a bit, they belong to my personal vocabulary.

@Chris: With these new developments, maybe we should record two new talking heads (real small ones) and edit those on top of our current talking heads.