Newbie questions on modes and scales

[MalcolmAmos]

Almost. As WE have given you bits and pieces; some talking about Relative modes (that C, D, E thing) and others talking about Parallel modes ( that 1, b2, b3 thing) you have bits and pieces of the story. You're close -- good luck.....

Go here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] I've taken you to the "M" index. Look up the papers written about modes - start here [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] read them all and see if that does not help. Move to the "S" index and see if Scales will tell you anything. Here is one I recommend. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Then [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] is a follow up with a lot on modes. You asked about pentatonic modes. Check this out: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Should mention most of these papers have a button on the last page that will take you to "the next part of the story" take advantage of this button - bottom of the last page of the paper you are now reading.

Print them off, find an easy chair, and see where they take you.

Again -- Good luck.

 

[Chris K]

So, do pentatonics have modes? (for future reference, of when I understand it...)

No. Scales do not 'have' modes, modes ARE scales, diatonic scales to be precise. All diatonic scales (modes included) have 7 notes, adding up to an octave by whole steps and half steps (one exeption: harmonic minor scale has w+h from 6 >7).

Each diatonic scale has its own set of diatonic chords, created by stacking thirds on each of the scale's notes,

So, on the major scale c d e f g a b c we can build:
c e g b
d f a c
e g b d
f a c e
etc.

On, f.e. the lydian scale c d e f# g a b c we get:
c e g b
d f# a c
e g b d
f# a c e
etc.

Now you see that some chords are the same, while others differ. The lydian character will only be there if in a certain composition with c as the tonal center, f# is consistantly used instead of f.

From which follows that anybody who says: 'I play d dorian over Dm7' has to be modified immediately.

 

[shackled]

Subbed- I need to read this when I'm sober.

 

[oren]

No. Scales do not 'have' modes, modes ARE scales, diatonic scales to be precise.

I don't think that's quite correct, at least it's not how I learned it. The way I was taught back in college is that scales have modes which are created by starting on the different degrees of the scale, and that those modes can be associated with different chords that can be created by stacking alternate notes from the mode.

So there are 7 modes of the major diatonic scale, starting with the familiar major scale (C D E F G A B C) which can be used over a Maj7 chord (C E G B).

The second mode of the major scale is the Dorian (D E F G A B C D) and can be used over a Min7 chord (D F A C). The third mode is the Phrygian (E F G A B C D E) and while you could use it over a min 7 chord (E G B D), it's mostly used for "Spanish" sorts of sounds, because it contains the F major chord too.

But there are modes of other scales that are useful too. For instance the melodic minor scale (C D Eb F G A B C), which is not a mode of the major scale, is useful as is against a minor chord with a major 7th (C Eb G B-natural). Some of the modes of the melodic minor are also useful - for instance the fourth mode (F G A B C D Eb), called the Lydian Dominant, is frequently used in jazz soloing over dominant seventh chords (F A C Eb) because it contains the flatted seventh (Eb), and both the regular fifth (C) and the flatted fifth (B).

The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale (B C D Eb F G A B C D), called the altered or diminished whole tone scale, is particularly useful for jazz soloing against dominant seventh chords that have altered fifths, ninths, thirteenths, etc. (like B7 b5 +9) It's got the flat ninth (C), the plus 9 (D), the major third (Eb), the flatted fifth (F), the augmented fifth (G), and the flatted seventh (A).

Portland jazz guitarist John Stowell has spent a lot of time working on using the melodic minor modes and gives great workshops on the topic.

I've also known people who've spent time working on the modes of the harmonic minor scale (C D Eb F G Ab B C), though I've never spent any time with that.

I've found Marc Sabatella's Jazz Improvisation Primer to be a useful web text for explaining all this stuff - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], and his discussion of harmony is particularly relevant to this discussion - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

And as other people have pointed out - thinking about harmony coming from knowledge of modal theory is something many people find useful, but it's not meant to be gospel, merely one avenue to exploring a variety of sounds in different contexts. Your mileage may vary, but hopefully this is helpful.

 

[Chris K]

Meanings of terms change from time to time: we have the classical meaning, knowing seven modes only with traditional Greek names.

And a newer concept explained by Oren, where 'mode' means a derivate from a scale by starting on the 2nd, 3rd etc.

Maybe we need new terms to distinguish between the two.

Oren writes:
""The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale (B C D Eb F G A B C D), called the altered or diminished whole tone scale, is particularly useful for jazz soloing against dominant seventh chords that have altered fifths, ninths, thirteenths, etc. (like B7 b5 +9) It's got the flat ninth (C), the plus 9 (D), the major third (Eb), the flatted fifth (F), the augmented fifth (G), and the flatted seventh (A)."

IMHO - I'm curious of what others say - these tonality shifts can easily wind up to cheapish licks that cannot be called jazz improvisation. They are just there to compensate for lack of ideas. You can fumble over just about any diatonic scale that starts a major 3rd from the root of a chord and get away with it, if you play fast enough. But it will have little to do with expressing your deepest emotions in a solo.

 

[Schlyder]

Good explanation oren. Everything you said is exactly as I learned it in college as well.
Every scale can be broken into down into derived diatonic scales(modes) as well as diatonic chords related to that scale (by harmonizing the scale the same way we harmonize the major scale) whether it be the Minor Penatatonic scale with it's 5 modes, or the Harmonic Minor scale with it's 7 modes and 7 diatonic chords, or the Melodic Minor scale and it's 7 modes and 7 diatonic chords.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I strongly disagree with that. Learning your major and minor scales in all 12 keys is a good place to start, but from there you should learn every scale, mode, whatever you can get your hands on. Some of them you might like the way they sound and they can become part of your routine. Other ones that you don't like, well, don't play them.

I think the more theory you know the better of you are. It is good to start with the basics so you don't get overwhelmed, but why limit yourself?

Let's not forget the pentatonic (five tone) scales either, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of those over the years.

Sorry but it is the more theory that apples to your situation is the way forward.

Just to exaggerate and take you out of context,

learning all the languages of Europe will improve my speaking
of French how?

And if i never ever plan to go to France what's the point of learning French?

Back to context..be theory savy for what you need and build through experience and practical application of what you need, not what's available.

 

[Bootzilla]

This argument about modes all comes down to the two ways in which you can use them.

One way is the diatonic way in which you use them as derivatives of the scale the song is written in to play over the chords that come from those modes.
(Not very useful to know because they won't offer you new notes to play beyond the key but still vital knowledge IMO).

The other is using the modes as scales of their own to either use them as the key of a song or to use them over a chord which matches with the mode but is not necessarily derived from the mode.
(This offers new options beyond the notes from the key the song is written in so could be seen as more useful).

Both options of using modes is entirely valid and there is no reason to argue about how modes should be used and if they are true scales or not.

(If I made a mistake please correct me).

BTW. In my opinion using modes for improvising is not very useful at all because when you play to the chords and use scalar and chromatic notes to fill in the blanks you already have enough options to express yourself. When people start to think about scales and modes it often takes away from the emotion and feel of the solo. When you can use modes for improvising without giving in on feel and emotion (which means you can use them fluently) then props to you and keep on using them but until you reach that level it might be more rewarding to focus on the chords instead of scales and modes.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

.

Both options of using modes is entirely valid and there is no reason to argue about how modes should be used and if they are true scales or not.

I find any arguments with modes is not about there use, that is clear, its about how, when and if they need to be taught.

Modes are NOT "C major scale" starting on different notes. This single concept has confused more musicians than it's helped.

In reality this is what modes are and this single concept is crystal clear.
There use and interaction in music is completely different, but what they are is clear inversions of a C scale. Since the scales we use are built from this one scale, the C scale, it is the starting block for just about everything we know, then modes are indeed inversions of the C scale.

I see no evidence or reason believe that from modes the C scale was discovered or a Tonic minor scale was discovered.
Since we are talking theory, the concept that most theory was born from a single source that was expanded, applied. expanded, and applied till where we are today.

 

[Pacman]

In reality this is what modes are and this single concept is crystal clear.
There use and interaction in music is completely different, but what they are is clear inversions of a C scale. Since the scales we use are built from this one scale, the C scale, it is the starting block for just about everything we know, then modes are indeed inversions of the C scale.

This is absolutely wrong.

 

[Asher S]

These recurring threads always remind me of the hotly debated "digital vs. film" threads on the photography forums.

I think this concept is being made more complicated than it need be.

In his "The Jazz Theory Book", Mark Levine defines modes of the C major scale as seven different C major scales, with each mode simply starting on a different note of the scale. It's implied that the modes can be built from essentially any scale, not just the C major scale. Case in point: Later on in the book he shows the modes for the melodic minor scale...

It's a good book. Even more instructive would be to find a good teacher...

 

[Fergie Fulton]

This is absolutely wrong.

Sorry but how can that concept be wrong?

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

which are all inversions of C and all correspond to a mode.

Since we can assume that the notes of the C scale are perfect in that they need no sharps and flats we can build everything that we have in music from this simple concept.

I do not wish to confuse with with the ancient theories of tetra chord but just point out that they are indeed in there form.... inversions of C.
Sorry but nothing absolutely wrong about it, unless what i have written is not true? Its there so there for all to see so no confusing on that part. There interaction is another thing completely, but there form is simply and inversion of C.

 

[Asher S]

Since we can assume that the notes of the C scale are perfect in that they need no sharps and flats we can build everything that we have in music from this simple concept.

This part doesn't sound right. "Perfect" (and minor, major, diminished etc) refers to intervals, not absolute notes. EG, C# is the perfect 5th of F#.

 

[Pacman]

Sorry but how can that concept be wrong?

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

which are all inversions of C and all correspond to a mode.

Since we can assume that the notes of the C scale are perfect in that they need no sharps and flats we can build everything that we have in music from this simple concept.

I do not wish to confuse with with the ancient theories of tetra chord but just point out that they are indeed in there form.... inversions of C.
Sorry but nothing absolute about it, its there so there is no confusing on that part. There interaction is another thing, but there form is simply and inversion of C.

First of all, you're relating everything to a specific key, rather than a scale type (major, in this case). Secondly, sure modes are constructed in the fashion you describe, but that's where it ends. Each mode is its own scale, unto itself, with its own tonality. This "Dorian is C major from D to D" business clouds the reality of a mode for a number of reasons. Chiefly, scales aren't used from root to root. Secondly, relating modes back to a 'parent' major scale slows the process of learning the tonality and function of each.

I'm speaking from experience here, it wasn't until I started thinking about modes differently that I began to truly understand them.

 

[Bootzilla]

This part doesn't sound right. "Perfect" (and minor, major, diminished etc) refers to intervals, not absolute notes. EG, C# is the perfect 5th of F#.

This is purely semantics. He explained what he meant by perfect so for this particular occurrence of the word perfect we should use the description he provided. That the term is also used for intervals has nothing to do with the point he made.

 

[Asher S]

This is purely semantics. He explained what he meant by perfect so for this particular occurrence of the word perfect we should use the description he provided. That the term is also used for intervals has nothing to do with the point he made.

In music theory "perfect" has a specific definition. It does NOT mean the absence of sharps and flats, no matter what anyone decides it should mean.

Also, C is enharmonically equivalent to B#, so is C "perfect" by his definition or not???

Also, his assumption "that the notes of the C scale are perfect in that they need no sharps and flats we can build everything that we have in music from this simple concept" is just plain wrong. "Everything that we have" far exceeds the limitations of the C major scale & its modes (or any other major scale and its modes).

 

[Fergie Fulton]

First of all, you're relating everything to a specific key, rather than a scale type (major, in this case). Secondly, sure modes are constructed in the fashion you describe, but that's where it ends. Each mode is its own scale, unto itself, with its own tonality. This "Dorian is C major from D to D" business clouds the reality of a mode for a number of reasons. Chiefly, scales aren't used from root to root. Secondly, relating modes back to a 'parent' major scale slows the process of learning the tonality and function of each.

I'm speaking from experience here, it wasn't until I started thinking about modes differently that I began to truly understand them.

I agree with everything you say Jon but all i said was that they are inversions of C and that is true.

Their application once anyone gets past that 2 minute revelation is a different subject, but one has to start some where so where better than the beginning?

I also assume that a foundation is in place and that for example player know that scales have no limit as in root to tonic, the run under and over these two points.

There tonality is there own, and again not a point i am making i am giving a starting point of reference, again 2 minutes gets anyone past this concept.

Seeing them as inversions does not cloud them, it is not relating them back as a reference other than to show where the come from. Again 2 minutes of a lesson will clear that point up.

From the way i was taught as a classical student, we had that 2 minute lesson and it was never related to again and we went off into the world of modes and their intervals and tonalities.
We were thinking about them differently five minutes in to the lesson and that was 40 years ago.

My point is and still is, do not complicate the basic information and that is they are inversions of C.

Then it is stated that "This is absolutely wrong".

Then it is "sure modes are constructed in the fashion you describe"

That is conflicting information, confusion of the point.

All i say is the point, no buts at this stage, just the point...buts come later.

Any one starting there will find there way around easy with a good teacher to answer any questions if they want to explore them deeper.

This part doesn't sound right. "Perfect" (and minor, major, diminished etc) refers to intervals, not absolute notes. EG, C# is the perfect 5th of F#./QUOTE]

As said semantic with the terminology of language, but perfect also means in this context as no sharps or flats needed to be used because the leading note conforms. This then lead to scale building, this then takes us into intervals and the idea of they are consonant and dissonant and then to the 12 notes we use in our music. Then we are into application of chords harmony and it gets all to much without proper foundation.

This is basic music theory, 1st year stuff learned as foundation. Funny really because a perfect 4th is 5 semitones, and a perfect 5th is 7 semitones in the 12 note scale that you will encounter in using modes.

 

[Asher S]

As said semantic with the terminology of language, but perfect also means in this context as no sharps or flats needed to be used because the leading note conforms. This then lead to scale building, this then takes us into intervals and the idea of they are consonant and dissonant and then to the 12 notes we use in our music. Then we are into application of chords harmony and it gets all to much without proper foundation.

This is basic music theory, 1st year stuff learned as foundation. Funny really because a perfect 4th is 5 semitones, and a perfect 5th is 7 semitones in the 12 note scale that you will encounter in using modes.

Wow. Talk about "confusion of the point" !

In no music lesson/instruction that I ever received did I ever encounter the word "perfect" to mean the absence of sharps and flats, nor was that concept ever used to build a theory of everything for music.

Rock on.

 

[jacostilllives]

Meh just learn Dorian and Mixolydian.. you'll be fine

 

[onlyclave]

Fergie Fulton = Mutedeity.