My new understanding: Modes are scales, like, those 7 are. They ARE major-scale derivatives, but CAN apply to other scales, even outrageous ones, but in such case it is under a different name (like, an augmented mixalydian Irish weird-ass-scale [and also, a lot of times, those scales will just be called like, Irish-weird-ass-scale#2]).
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Newbie questions on modes and scales
- Thread starter Casezilla
- Start date
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,409
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- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
A better explanation of what I tried to say.
I don't know what your jazz lead sheets look like, but mine often show at least 2 chords per bar.
So I have exactly 2 beats to play a solo in B locrian over Dm7 - LOL.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,409
- 9,867
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Sometimes they show 4 or 8 bars at a time with one chord. Chord tones are going to get a little stale. Best to know both, don't you think?
Besides, chords and scales are the same thing.
LOL only confusing if you do not get the point and there lies the perfect example of what we are talking about.
As for the use of perfect in music, come now.... how do i explain the fact that it is a perfect scale because it needs no help to conform...that is perfect use of perfect.
As for never coming across its use in music...you have now, so if you can find another word to describe it then let me know.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,409
- 9,867
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
As for the use of perfect in music, come now.... how do i explain the fact that it is a perfect scale because it needs no help to conform...that is perfect use of perfect.
That's ridiculous! Conform to what? Tell me you don't think the Major scale is the beginning and ending of music! Or that the major scale was somehow the first scale?
Also, the major scale has been around longer than keyboard instruments, so your basic premise is screwed anyway.
They sometimes do. Yet I prefer to not think in seperate chords, but in chord progressions.
Surely not what I intend to play soloing over a chord that lasts for 8 bars
It won´t hurt, but I fear the danger of my playing becoming artificial, playing what I know instead of what I hear.
Deep wisdom, in the general sense that chords are generated from scales.
However, the same chords can be generated from different scales, they can have different harmonic functions, appear in different chord progressions, support different melodies, and all of these differences will and, IMHO, SHOULD influence the solo´s played over them.
Dear FF,
Some homework.
The major scale on any tonica is built on these intervals:
natural 2nd
natural 3rd
perfect 4th
perfect 5th
natural 6th
natural 7th
perfect octave
perfect 4th, 5th and octave are called perfect consonants
3rd and 6th (natural or flat) are called imperfect consonants
2nd and 7th are called dissonants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance
Since the notes have been named a,b,c,d,e,f,g you are giving everyone a hard time when you hold that c is the note from where it all began..
It's the third note.
Keyboards were not designed around C major, but based on the original a b c d e f g order, AKA the a natural minor scale.
The pitch of that a, today 440 Hz (or 220, or 880) has varied widely in the past.
The rising of artistic secular music from the 15th century onward made the major scale the most popular of the seven best known modes. There are more modes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
The natural minor scale was slightly less popular. Under the influence of the harmonic role (as leading note in a V7 -I sequence) of the natural 7th of the major scale, a natural 7th was imported to the natural minor scale, that thus evolved into the harmonic minor scale.
Some homework.
The major scale on any tonica is built on these intervals:
natural 2nd
natural 3rd
perfect 4th
perfect 5th
natural 6th
natural 7th
perfect octave
perfect 4th, 5th and octave are called perfect consonants
3rd and 6th (natural or flat) are called imperfect consonants
2nd and 7th are called dissonants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance
Since the notes have been named a,b,c,d,e,f,g you are giving everyone a hard time when you hold that c is the note from where it all began..
It's the third note.
Keyboards were not designed around C major, but based on the original a b c d e f g order, AKA the a natural minor scale.
The pitch of that a, today 440 Hz (or 220, or 880) has varied widely in the past.
The rising of artistic secular music from the 15th century onward made the major scale the most popular of the seven best known modes. There are more modes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
The natural minor scale was slightly less popular. Under the influence of the harmonic role (as leading note in a V7 -I sequence) of the natural 7th of the major scale, a natural 7th was imported to the natural minor scale, that thus evolved into the harmonic minor scale.
LOL only confusing if you do not get the point and there lies the perfect example of what we are talking about.
Echoes of Abbott and Costello, anyone?
Fergie, I didn't realize you held the power to redefine music theory your own way on this here forum. And that's even without a TB supporting membership!
BTW: The C major scale may have no sharps or flats, but that exact same series of notes can also be notated as such: B#, D, E, E#, G, A, B.
I'm deciding right here to call that one Asher's weird ass scale #2. I'll name the modes later today after lunch.
Addendum: I just decided I want some flats in there too
B#, D, E, E#, Abb, A, Cb
Voila! Asher's weird ass scale #3!
Sorry Asher, that would have to be classified as a synthetic scale since it doesn't follow any of the diatonic rules.
How about C, Dbb, E#, F, Gbb, Ax, Bbb? There's weird-ass.
BTW, I think the terms "Perfect, major, minor, augmented and diminished" were first established by Fuchs to describe the diatonic interval qualities. It has nothing to do with white and black keys.
Good point! I totally agree that just playing mechanically learned scales/modes/arpeggios/patterns does not equal accomplished artistic expression.
Some people find that the intellectual and mechanical discipline of learning these patterns and relationships are a good way to learn the various sound combinations and have them under their fingers when they want them. The stories of Coltrane spending hours and hours with the Slonimsky Thesaurus are well known.
Other people have different learning styles that lead them to finding the sounds they want whether it's through learning solos from recordings, playing variations off of melodies, or some sort of interior conceptual engine.
There is no single right way to any artistic goal!
LOL conform to the intervals that define it as major.
LOL no of course not but to understand scales it is the first one to learn and understand so that everything that follows is in context, i.e. it is a foundation.
LOL again i never said it was. I used the piano as a perfect example of how to relate music ideas, as i take it we don't have ancient instruments like a Lyre or a Lute to hand to relate back to them.
For a simple none confusing foundation in music start simple
C scale, Its intervals are (T=tone ST = semi-tone)
T-T-ST-T-T-T-S.... to make it C minor lower the 3rd and 6th.
easy as that The fact the intervals relate to the Ionian mode is also clear.
It is two tetrachords a lower and an upper (tetra being 4 note Greek for four)
For it to conform and be considered a major scale the leading note has to be a semi-tone away from the tonic.
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C the scales clearly does that. its intervals show the B-C is a semitone (the leading note being the 7th note of the scale)
New scale with one sharp
take the top tetrachord (four note) and use it as the lower tetrachord
G-A-B-C then add the rest of the scale note, the upper tetrachord of D-E-F-G to form a new scale.
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
this scale does not conform because the leading note is not a semi-tone away from the tonic. This scales intervals are Mixolydian not Ionian.
Add a sharp to the leading note,
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G it is now conforming to be a Major and if you see it an Ionian scale again. Lower the 3rd and 6th for the minor. Just keep repeating the process and you will build new Major scales, which can be altered to form new minor scales.
from all this you can make modes, chords, harmony, melody, etc.
That is why i say it is a foundation. It is not complicated to see and understand if you want to. I know there is more to it than this but why complicate the simple idea you want to build on?
Well if what i just exampled is re-defining then i have surely gone back in time.
This is basic 1st year music education as i was taught, i learned this at about 9 years of age 40 odd years ago.
Please feel free to dispute what i have written, or use it to understand music principals, but it is there in simple black and white as it has been for hundreds if not thousands of years in some form.
You should listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about.
The thing is, modes are most often taught as "permutations" of a Major scale. Not ONLY the C major scale....any Major scale has the same modes. You can also "bulid" modes from relative minor scales, and even from pentatonic or altered scales, as someone's pointed out.
And keep in mind, this is for Western Tempered music. I've seen people call some "altered" or "Synthetic" scales things like "Indian Scale," or whatnot, but in reality that's just a name someone stuck on a sound they heard. If you really want to blow your mind, check out Srutis......
Modes are a useful idea for some folks...and a source of confusion for others. Anyone ever seen Bunny Brunel's instructional books? He's got his own way of looking at modes....and that will REALLY confuse you, if you've been taught the "classic" way of defining them and you hang onto that. But if you REALLY understand, you can see how Bunny's system has it's uses, too.....
i'd be interested to hear you elaborate on the way of looking at this stuff that opened it up for you....
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,409
- 9,867
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Which point, Jim?
On the way of understanding modes, and someone else has already mentioned it, but parallel modes, all staring on the same tonic. Thus:
(as related to the major scale)
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Aolean 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
using this method, you're learning each scale for what it is - a separate tonality by itself.
Was this what you were asking?
This was the best thing I ever bought pertaining to scales/modes:
http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Grimoire-Complete-Adam-Kadmon/dp/0825821819
http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Grimoire-Complete-Adam-Kadmon/dp/0825821819
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
And as a way to hear this play Doe Ray Me from The Sound of Music as it appears, Ionian mode. The play it again using say using Aeolian, then Dorian etc.
The fact you are using the tempo, rhythm, and the scale notes of the original mode, the tonality (melody) will change in each of the six new "versions" you now play. Because the melody has changed so can the harmony etc.
Because the song is one most will relate to (most people remember the song) you will have to accustom your ears to hearing the new tonalities, and not let the brain "try" and correct your playing.
This simple exercise alone is one of the many ways to understand some of the applications of modes at a basic level...an introductory level if you will, one step on from what i was proposing previous... once you understand that foundation.
