Newbie questions on modes and scales

[togglehead]

There are the rare few who will write lead sheets with a F/D...indicating a D to be played by the bass....but thats quite rare even in new school charts. My father does this (another bass player/musician), and so do i...

 

[dimetech]

Sorry guys. Ya I was only speaking in triads cuz im still wrapping my head around this stuff. I suppose it should have been:
I ii7 iii7 IV V7 vi7 viiº7, cuz all those modes have the dominant 7th, correct? And I was also only thinking of the natural minor. I believe the harmonic minor has a raised 7th and the melodic minor has both a raised 6th and 7th.

Also correct. I think he is just dealing with the diatonic triads though.
I noticed he didn't notate the V as V7 so I am assuming he is only dealing with the triads.

I also didn't want to derail his train of thought so I did not expand that it can also be thought of in terms of the related major key, or bring in any harmonic minor or melodic minor elements, as that was not the intent of the question.
It is too early to give someone the modal headache.

 

[Schlyder]

Sorry guys. Ya I was only speaking in triads cuz im still wrapping my head around this stuff. I suppose it should have been:
IMaj7 IIm7 IIIm7 IVMaj7 V7 VIm VIIm7b5 cuz all those modes have the flatted 7th, correct?
And I was also only thinking of the natural minor. I believe the harmonic minor has a raised 7th and the melodic minor has both a raised 6th and 7th. of the natuaral minor scale.

No worries, starting with the triads is good.
OK if you are now going to talk about seventh chords, make sure you are understanding everything clearly, and don't be willy nilly naming things, as thats where confusion begins.

Just worry about naming/thinking of the V chord as being dominant,or having a dominant 7th, for now.

And everything else think of it as having a flatted or a minor 7th. That way you won't have confusion from anything you may encounter about secondary dominants or dominant resolution etc.

 

[dimetech]

I got you. thanks for the help guys.

 

[Chris K]

There are the rare few who will write lead sheets with a F/D...indicating a D to be played by the bass....but thats quite rare even in new school charts. My father does this (another bass player/musician), and so do i...

Not quite my point. They write F - period. Limiting your options, that is.
A major drawback of the lead sheet system, if you are too shy to break away from it.

 

[togglehead]

Not quite my point. They write F - period. Limiting your options, that is.
A major drawback of the lead sheet system, if you are too shy to break away from it.

To break away as a player, or a composer?

I thought i saw your point but reread it and now questioning things. If i just saw an F chord in a lead sheet my unconscious default would be to play an F and try to squeeze in a C...depending on where im going.

But...as a player youre saying if we had full charts, we could see that the melody had a subdominant (or F in this C key example) and if the D sounded ok we could could consider it a Dm also because theres an F there? Or...even a G7? Or Bbm?

Or...am i again over thinking this...and you were merely pointing out that these chords were other options for the composer?

 

[Chris K]

To break away as a player, or a composer?

I thought i saw your point but reread it and now questioning things. If i just saw an F chord in a lead sheet my unconscious default would be to play an F and try to squeeze in a C...depending on where im going.

But...as a player youre saying if we had full charts, we could see that the melody had a subdominant (or F in this C key example) and if the D sounded ok we could could consider it a Dm also because theres an F there? Or...even a G7? Or Bbm?

Or...am i again over thinking this...and you were merely pointing out that these chords were other options for the composer?

I don''t remember writing that I need a full chart to know a subdominant is needed. I don't. In the case of full charts, you are to play what's written.


If it's lead sheet only, as a bassist you are your own arranger. You are responsible for the bass part. If there''s a bad fit between the written chord and the 'ideal' bass line, I say: venture to break away from the written chord, within reason. In jazz music changes are quite normal.

To compose a good song is one thing; to write a good arrangement is another skill.

 

[togglehead]

I don''t remember writing that I need a full chart to know a subdominant is needed. I don't. In the case of full charts, you are to play what's written.


If it's lead sheet only, as a bassist you are your own arranger. You are responsible for the bass part. If there''s a bad fit between the written chord and the 'ideal' bass line, I say: venture to break away from the written chord, within reason. In jazz music changes are quite normal.

To compose a good song is one thing; to write a good arrangement is another skill.

Ok...i worded myself incorrectly, and for that i mislead you. I didnt not mean to imply you said anything about full charts...and perhaps this is my amateur side showing through...but how did you know the chord called for a subdominant in advance? Would knowledge of the melody tip you off in this case?

I guess most of my thinking comes from the angle of having never seen the charts im about to play....and less from those who are familiar with the tunes before the gig. I understand...there may be no answer...

My goal here is to try an understand my way around inversions/substitutions to use them cleverly on the fly. To find that 'ideal' bass line...without venturing to something that doesnt belong.

Of course, i could just resolve it right and call it Jazz.

 

[JimmyM]

There are the rare few who will write lead sheets with a F/D...indicating a D to be played by the bass....but thats quite rare even in new school charts. My father does this (another bass player/musician), and so do i...

not rare at all. i see this all the time.

 

[Chris K]

Ok...i worded myself incorrectly, and for that i mislead you. I didnt not mean to imply you said anything about full charts...and perhaps this is my amateur side showing through...but how did you know the chord called for a subdominant in advance? QUOTE]

If you have a lead sheet, give it a try to write out harmonic functions next to the chords: I - ii - iii - IV etc. (in the case of major). Start with a simple tune, no modulations.

Next step is to know that IV, ii and sometimes vi are subdominants.
V, vii0 and often iii are dominants
I, often vi , sometimes iii are tonica.

So in the key of C, the most probable subdominants are F and Dm and their derivates, like Fm7, Ddim etc.

A very common functional order is: I - iii - vi - IV - ii - V7 - I

Chromatic chords in many cases are dominants for the next chord.

Would knowledge of the melody tip you off in this case?QUOTE]

Of course it would, but it's hard to define how in general terms.

 

[BassyBill]

For real beginners who are confused by all this stuff, I tried to cover it right from basics in this thread...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=631295

... just to satisfy folks' curiosity (as modes aren't the be-all-and-end-all of learning music).Some people did say they found it useful.

 

[togglehead]

Ok...i worded myself incorrectly, and for that i mislead you. I didnt not mean to imply you said anything about full charts...and perhaps this is my amateur side showing through...but how did you know the chord called for a subdominant in advance? QUOTE]

If you have a lead sheet, give it a try to write out harmonic functions next to the chords: I - ii - iii - IV etc. (in the case of major). Start with a simple tune, no modulations.

Next step is to know that IV, ii and sometimes vi are subdominants.
V, vii0 and often iii are dominants
I, often vi , sometimes iii are tonica.

So in the key of C, the most probable subdominants are F and Dm and their derivates, like Fm7, Ddim etc.

A very common functional order is: I - iii - vi - IV - ii - V7 - I

Chromatic chords in many cases are dominants for the next chord.

Would knowledge of the melody tip you off in this case?QUOTE]

Of course it would, but it's hard to define how in general terms.

I see! I see! Now its onto practice and application. Your (and JTE's) words about key centers and harmonic functions have already improved my walking. I'm beginning to really like what i hear...not just what i know.

thank you again...so much.

 

[MarkMcBass]

If you want to build modes from any root heres the interval patterns!

Ionian (maj scale)= whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half

Aeolian (min scale)= whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole, whole

Dorian= whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half, whole

Phrygian= half, whole, whole, whole, half, whole, whole

Lydian= whole, whole, whole, half, whole, whole, half

Mixolydian= whole, whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole

Locrian= half, whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole

Write this down this is one of my best notes I keep! its like a quick and easy secret to making modes haha

 

[4Strings46]

I think this topic is a popular one. i was taught differently and did not learn modes. Why I learned chordal tones instead of scales is easy to understand: all music song forms are formed around CHORDS, and as a bass playerI have to know how to funtion in chordal progressions,and know what chordal notes to play and how to move them. I have played with so called scale trained musicians who can play alot of scales but they cant play a simple 12 bar blues, can't follow chords with their ears, and do not know where their basic chordal notes are or cannot play a simple R35 arpeggio across the neck in *one* position. I played a tune on my first jazz lesson and walking good lines in the jazz chords on the blues....in one lesson! How? Simple,I learned the basics of chordal notes, and chordal scales and leaarned how chords move and function. Most of the basslines I learned are made up from chordal notes, for all styles, altho' the jazz styles require a more complete line of theory, it's still thinking in *chords*! Jazz improv (and walking lines) use mainly chordal notes with some lead-in chromatics, some b5s on the cyclic chords, and yes, even an occasional scale for connecting the chordal notes., but if you really listen to the jazz patterns, they are formed from chordal notes, stacked triads, and the pivotal b5 chord substitutes: G7b5b9 (with the b9 replacing G), IS Db7. Db7b5b9 (with the b9 replacing the root) IS G7. No two other chords are like this.

 

[Chris K]

This is not meant to write that I disagree with you, because in the practical sense you are very right. Chords have become the major focus in music since jazz came up in the early 20th century. Early jazz musicians - like early pop musicians - could often hardly read written music. Chord symbols provided a simple and practical middle of the road between full charts and playing by ear entirely. And they left (and I hope still leave) room for improvisation.

BTW, writing full charts, most composers/arrangers (I do lots of arranging) do not bother too much about chords. Better to write LINES: melody, bass, counter melodies. I only bother to write chords to the 'vertical coincedences' of those lines if somebody who can't read music is coming to play

This afternoon I will be doing a jazz gig with piano, drums and three saxes. We use realbooks, but different books will show different chords. And we don't mind, because they're all OK. We use them as general guidance, not to smash each others ears with. New ways of playing that old stuff will be thought up on the spot. Our pianoman will throw in b5ves, #9nes and many more uneven numbers with # or b, and I shall try hard to keep up with him No doubt we will be making mistakes, but we will also make discoveries.

For larger bands and non-improvisational styles of music a stricter use of chord sheets seems more useful. but keep in mind that in the latter case they are nothing but a less ideal surrogate for a full chart.

 

[4Strings46]

Hi Chris thank you for your inputt. As a student I know I can learn from you. I am taking big band orchestrating and arranging lessons from one of the best arranger orchestrators in the biz and is taking me one step at a time. We are currently working with 8 instruments and using finale. It would be a pleasure to get some feedback from you. I always like to get other ideas. thanks much.