Newbie questions on modes and scales

[Jim Campbell]

Which point, Jim?

On the way of understanding modes, and someone else has already mentioned it, but parallel modes, all staring on the same tonic. Thus:

(as related to the major scale)

Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Aolean 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

using this method, you're learning each scale for what it is - a separate tonality by itself.


Was this what you were asking?

if that's what you meant about looking at them differently.....it seems that we have both arrived at the same place via different routes....i have been spending a lot of time arpeggiating chords,and the modes you describe have appeared as a by product of that study....thanks

 

[Chris K]

... you will have to accustom your ears to hearing the new tonalities,

^^^^
This is the key

 

[Fergie Fulton]

... you will have to accustom your ears to hearing the new tonalities,

^^^^
This is the key

Its one of the keys Chris ( i am am using the word key as not related to scales in case anyone has problems with its use)

If we go back to the C scale and hear its tones in construction they are very much in tune and pleasing. To hear music we call "out of tune" may be not the case, it is just that out brain cannot relate the tonality used.

A great quote in the UK comes from Eric Morcombe playing the piano to the then leader and conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra Andre Previn in the 70s when Previn accuses him of "playing all the wrong notes" Morcombe retorts " i'm playing all the right notes......but not necessarly in the right order"

That is why i say if you use the C scale as the foundation, the ear accustoms itself to hearing tonality so the introduction of new tonalites and ideas can be moved forward quickly and easily. The fact we can build most things off this one concept makes it easier to move along as each new idea is supported by the previous.

If there is any relationships, explanations, examples, or analogies to be made, they can be made within the reference of music first and foremost before introducing a new idea to look at it and cause further confusion if that idea is not understood.

That is why i say it is more about when things are taught rather than how they are taught or used, how they are used is so subjective to the ear using them or the ear listening to them.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I think there are 63 replies so far. Normally a modal question will run on, and on, and on. Making it more confusing for the OP as we add other thoughts. With that in mind. A thought unloosened last night.

Relative modes .............................. Parallel modes.
Ionian C, D, E, F, G, A, B................. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Dorian.... D, E, F, G, A, B, C ........... 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Now we all know that a D scale is not D, E, F, G, A, B, C, but if we take the D scale .... D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# and flat the 3rd and the 7th we get Dorian.

Where does this take us?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I think there are 63 replies so far. Normally a modal question will run on, and on, and on. Making it more confusing for the OP as we add other thoughts. With that in mind. A thought unloosened last night.

Relative modes .............................. Parallel modes.
Ionian C, D, E, F, G, A, B................. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Dorian.... D, E, F, G, A, B, C ........... 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Now we all know that a D scale is not D, E, F, G, A, B, C, but if we take the D scale .... D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# and flat the 3rd and the 7th we get Dorian.

Where does this take us?

Well we are in the middle of it so look at its tetachords

lower D-E-F#-G..... upper A-B-C#-D take the upper as the new lower A-B-C-D add the next four diatonic note E-F-G-A- and it is now Aeolian reletive minor to Ionian A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

Add the accidentals back in and its,

A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A

so it is now Mixolydian, but if it is to be considered major the the leading note has to be a semi tone away from the tonic so we add a sharp to the G as that is the only option
so now it reads

A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A

so now it is Ionian again and A major, whos relative minor is F# minor. Also notice how the sharps are building because of the need to keep the leading note a semitone from the tonic.

Again we see they way they are constructed and interact at a basic level.
This basic level will change once the interaction of Hypo-modes comes in to play.

 

[splash]

hi...noob here...just wanna share a graphical representation i made myself...not sure if it's correct or not..

 

[Fergie Fulton]

hi...noob here...just wanna share a graphical representation i made myself...not sure if it's correct or not..

Looks good, that is the basic layout of the modes in their diatonic positions. if you play those patterns through the fret board starting on the lowest E (standard 4 string) and work through to the highest.
Using fingering and open strings available across all four strings you will work out where the centres of each mode occurs, rather than just running them from root to an octave. This will teach your ear not just to think of them as scales or patterns but notes (tonalities) in there own right.

Once you have got these notes you can interact between them with the other notes of the 12 note scale. Notice the mode tones are not altered by sharps and flats when in these positions.

unison..............C-C
semitone...........C-C#
whole tone........C-D
minor third.........C-Eb
major third.........C-E
perfect fourth.....C-F
tritone...............C-F#
perfect fifth........C-G
minor sixth ........C-Ab
major sixth.........C-A
minor seventh.....C-Bb
major seventh..... C-B
octave...............C-C

Once this concept has been understood you can tackle the harmonic interchange of the modes when moved around. That is where the Hypo mode comes in. Hypo in front of a mode means the same pattern of tones and semitones five notes higher.
So Hypoionian mode is the pattern of intervals as Ionian but running G-G, so you do not use the intervals for Mixolydian G-G but now use
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G which is Ionian and gives you a G major scale. Again we will see the interaction of the sharps and flats as we construct more scales from the modes. Again this relates back to and reinforces the concepts of Tertachord theory in scale construction so i was back where i started.

That is where i stopped, i saw no real value in them for what i wanted to do.
Was i right or wrong in that decision?
Well lets say i have not used or been asked to use modes in 30 years, though i do teach their basic layout so others can have the information to make up their own minds on how they want to deal with them. I moved on to other musical principals and ideas

 

[dimetech]

Sorry for the thread jacking, but it's related and I didn't want to start a new thread, so I'm just gonna ask my (music theory noob) question here. Bear with me.

key of Cmaj: C D E F G A B
I ii iii IV V vi viiº

so the chords that make up the key of c are:

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

Heres what I'm having trouble understanding...

How does the order of modes work in relation to minor keys? Is Amin an actual key or just a relative minor/aeolian mode of Cmaj?

For example...
Is it:

1) key of Amin: A B C D E F G
I ii iii IV V vi viiº

OR

2) key of Amin: A B C D E F G
vi viiº I ii iii IV V


I would think #2 would be correct. It makes sense to me that when dealing with minor keys, the order of modes would start on the aeolian, not the ionian. After all, the aeolian is the natural minor scale and the ionian is the major scale. Please advise.

 

[Schlyder]

yes, #2 example is correct

 

[Pacman]

Actually, in a minor key, you have choices depending on which minor scale the key is based.

Aolean

im7 iim7(b5) IIIMaj7 ivm7 vm7 VIMaj7 VII7

Melodic minor:

imin(maj7) iim7 III+7 IV7 V7 vim7 viim7(b5)

Harmonic Minor:

im7 iim7(b5) III+7 ivm7 V7 VIMaj7 viidim7

 

[Chris K]

The actual question was answered very well by Schlyder and Pacman, but one small detail:

key of Cmaj: C D E F G A B
I ii iii IV V vi viiº

so the chords that make up the key of c are:

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

It's B halfdim. B D F A
Bdim would be B D F Ab

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Sorry for the thread jacking, but it's related and I didn't want to start a new thread, so I'm just gonna ask my (music theory noob) question here. Bear with me.

key of Cmaj: C D E F G A B
I ii iii IV V vi viiº

so the chords that make up the key of c are:

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

Heres what I'm having trouble understanding...

How does the order of modes work in relation to minor keys? Is Amin an actual key or just a relative minor/aeolian mode of Cmaj?

For example...
Is it:

1) key of Amin: A B C D E F G
I ii iii IV V vi viiº

OR

2) key of Amin: A B C D E F G
vi viiº I ii iii IV V


I would think #2 would be correct. It makes sense to me that when dealing with minor keys, the order of modes would start on the aeolian, not the ionian. After all, the aeolian is the natural minor scale and the ionian is the major scale. Please advise.

A min. is a key, and no. 2 is correct, but no.1 is not wrong as such, because its application is related to the parent scale, the relative major, and that is C.
It is to do with application, and as i said before i bailed out because i saw it as pointless in relation to what i wanted to do.

As i said before, in order for a scale to be considered major the leading note has to be a semitone away from the tonic.

So it back to back to basics again because terms and educational knowledge being used that may not be familiar. This again is why confusion happens because the foundation is not there.

Each note or degree has a different letter of the alphabet assigned to it A-B-C-D-E-F-G so it is a diatonic approach. Apart from the alphabetic names of the notes, each degree have a technical name to distinguish it from the note names.

Note names change with in music but the degrees can stay the same. C-G is dominant, but so is A-E, as is F#- C#. The notes change but the or degrees don't.

The
1st (key note) is the tonic
2nd is the supertonic
3rd is the mediant
4th is the subdominant
5thi s the dominant
6th is the submediant
7th is the leading note
8th is the tonic again

Each of these names apply to the eight note diatonic scale, not the12 note scale i posted earlier, the 12 note scale applies to them harmonically with dissonant and resonant resolves. The eight note major has the seven basic consonant intervals, that is the C scale or the Ionian mode. I will stop this here as i feel it has moved to another concept that should be in place to tackle modes.

Tackling modes is easy when the foundation is there. If there is no foundation they are hard, confusing, and pointless to try and use. That is why lots of ideas cross over, it is the same thing but presented different when read, but not when heard.

If you allow you ears to hear things then it becomes apparent the C-G is a 5th, it is Dominant etc, but only when C is the root. Take a mixolydian pattern of tones and semitones and start on C as the root.
There is no G to be dominant the notes are
C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-B-C.. the leading not is not a semitone away from the tonic so it can be considered one of the minor scales.

Again there has to be a solid foundation in music. I feel i am digging the hole deeper with each sentence i write, because i feel you are trying to take just the concept of modes without the foundation in music to support it. That is why modes should be one of the last lesson encountered in a course...it takes everything you have learned and changes their order, it is a twist in the plot.

 

[Chris K]

hi...noob here...just wanna share a graphical representation i made myself...not sure if it's correct or not..

Nice job.

Maybe you could improve the position of the clamps in such a way that they point to the exact heart of the 1st and 8th note of every mode.

This of course will still not satisfy half the guys who responded to this thread. To satisfy also them, make a pro version where you
- remove all the names of the notes
- don't indicate any fret numbers
an end up with a fully relative model to finger the modes.

Goal of the model: play any mode on any 1st note starting anywhere on the neck.

And how about a five string version?

 

[fearceol]

My knowledge of music theory is limited, so I am not in a position to argue with anyone. However, I have a few tutorial books and DVD's by Carol Kaye. Her message is, that's while it is important to understand the basics of scales and modes, (how chords are made from them etc ) the emphasis should be given to chords. These are what a bassist will be playing for the most part.

I dont wish to go off on a "chords v scales" tangent. They are both important. It is just that the chordal approach seems to make more sense to this comparative noobie.

 

[Schlyder]

The actual question was answered very well by Schlyder and Pacman, but one small detail:



It's B halfdim. B D F A
Bdim would be B D F Ab

Also correct. I think he is just dealing with the diatonic triads though.
I noticed he didn't notate the V as V7 so I am assuming he is only dealing with the triads.

I also didn't want to derail his train of thought so I did not expand that it can also be thought of in terms of the related major key, or bring in any harmonic minor or melodic minor elements, as that was not the intent of the question.
It is too early to give someone the modal headache.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I dont wish to go off on a "chords v scales" tangent. They are both important. It is just that the chordal approach seems to make more sense to this comparative noobie.

Well this is the problem as i often come across it.
Somewhere along the way in recent times they two have become independant of each other, some how one is more important.

We this view will ultimately lead to confusion because the information for both supports both.

So what is a Dm7 chord?

How do you form a Dm7 chord?

If those two question require any reference to scales then the scales should have been learnt and in place before Dm7 was even mentioned. That information will support what is to come.

The fact that scale study can be covered in one easy lesson and chords, harmony,melody etc cannot shows the improtance of the lessons to come. The fact that chords, harmony, melody etc is supported by scales again shows the need for scales to be in the foundation. Scales are one lesson to teach, couple hours max. if i do it.
That's a couple of hours to put a foundation in, and the rest of their life for any student to approach it on there own time. It will be built on and expanded as the education in music continues, but the back tracking will be removed and light bulb moments of "Ohh i see" and "Ahhh so that's why that works" will happen.

Anyone trying modes without the foundation of basic information will end up in trouble, the same way they will in other parts of music, if they seek to understand the concepts it offers. It is about when the information is learnt, not what is learnt

 

[Chris K]

Also correct. I think he is just dealing with the diatonic triads though.
I noticed he didn't notate the V as V7 so I am assuming he is only dealing with the triads.

You're right! I missed that...

 

[Chris K]

My knowledge of music theory is limited, so I am not in a position to argue with anyone. However, I have a few tutorial books and DVD's by Carol Kaye. Her message is, that's while it is important to understand the basics of scales and modes, (how chords are made from them etc ) the emphasis should be given to chords. These are what a bassist will be playing for the most part.

I don't know those books, so I wouldn't know if Mrs. Kaye really meant to put it that way.

IMHO the emphasis should be given neither to scales nor chords, but to harmonic functions.

I keep saying that chords are:
- the melody note
- the bass note (stating the correct harmonic function and preferably leading to the next function)
- a couple of other notes in between
This is the harmonic order of importance, so functions go before chords.

F.e., if in the key of C you need a subdominant and bass note D is somehow nicer than F, the chord is not to be named F, but Dm.

The sad thing is that some composers, unaware of bassplayers' needs, only write lead sheets with chords, so they might just write F. And if you dare to play a D to that F-chord, the band starts to :scowl:

 

[Fergie Fulton]

This is the harmonic order of importance, so functions go before chords.

F.e., if in the key of C you need a subdominant and bass note D is somehow nicer than F, the chord is not to be named F, but Dm.

And if you dare to play a D to that F-chord, the band starts to :scowl:

LOL.... thanks Chris another light bulb moment for me

 

[Chris K]

LOL.... thanks Chris another light bulb moment for me

You''re welcome.