Newbie soundman/old bass player

[scottman72]

Hey guys, really enjoy the advice I've received over the years on the bass forums! I'm forming a new band and will be attempting to run live sound myself. I'm completely new to running sound for a whole band but am willing to learn! I'm kind of tired of soundguys who drown out the bass in the mix and I feel that I can create a better overall mix of the band. So a couple of questions......so far I have a 16 channel Presonus mixer, a Crown XLS1500 and two Yamaha SM115 monitors. My drummer has 2 Peavey 18"subs and 2 Peavey 15/horn main speakers, several different power amps and 2 12"/horn monitor speakers. I Think this should be enough sound gear to get us started. Questions......Do you run right/left channels from the mixer to separate amps for the subs and the mains? I think his subs have built in crossovers so do I only need one amp for each sub/main Combo? I plan on using the Crown power amp for my Yamaha monitors and one of his amps for the other two monitors if possible. Does that sound like a normal way to run monitors? Basically I'm just confused on most of the connections and things from mixer to amps and amps to speakers. If you guys know of any resources for basic pa connections that would be appreciated too! thanks for any advice and forgive my newbie soundman questions!

 

[4Mal]

Ideally there would be an active crossover between the subs and the tops. Separate power amp for the subs, and for the tops. Left and right out to the xover inputs, low out to the sub power, high out to the tops power. The internal cross over in the Peavey's will do you no favors...

That cross over could be as simple as a used DBX for $100 or a nice Drive-rack for $500. If the Mac and SMAART isn't an option, Drive-racks generally have tuning tools (RTA) built in.

Aux sends to monitor power, preferrably each monitor with it's own side of an amp so you have independent mixes available. TRS TO XLR cables for those. Sounds like you'll want 4 of them, plus a couple of spares.

If you have a 16.4.2 and can hook up a Mac via firewire and a low end reference mic (I use the inexpensive Behringer one. It works fine.) and run the SMAART wizard. That will inform you as to adjustments that should made.

In my system, I run aux fed subs. There are some advantages and some complications. There are sound guy wars with almost religious fervency on the topic. For those of us at the low end, I believe the advantages outweigh. In an arena, stadium, monster line array setting I can see the disadvantages... Get rolling on the above and when comfy, come on back for the aux fed subs discussion... But before then is the ringing out the mains and monitors discussion...

 

[4Mal]

One other thing you'll need ... At the very least you need to have a decent wireless rig so you can get out front during sound check. Great if another player in the band can do the same. That and a notebook, plus the scene saving ability of your mixer will go a long way towards being consistent.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Will that mixer not do a mono crossover output plus a monitor mix out?

 

[scottman72]

Ideally there would be an active crossover between the subs and the tops. Separate power amp for the subs, and for the tops. Left and right out to the xover inputs, low out to the sub power, high out to the tops power. The internal cross over in the Peavey's will do you no favors...

That cross over could be as simple as a used DBX for $100 or a nice Drive-rack for $500. If the Mac and SMAART isn't an option, Drive-racks generally have tuning tools (RTA) built in.

Aux sends to monitor power, preferrably each monitor with it's own side of an amp so you have independent mixes available. TRS TO XLR cables for those. Sounds like you'll want 4 of them, plus a couple of spares.

If you have a 16.4.2 and can hook up a Mac via firewire and a low end reference mic (I use the inexpensive Behringer one. It works fine.) and run the SMAART wizard. That will inform you as to adjustments that should made.

In my system, I run aux fed subs. There are some advantages and some complications. There are sound guy wars with almost religious fervency on the topic. For those of us at the low end, I believe the advantages outweigh. In an arena, stadium, monster line array setting I can see the disadvantages... Get rolling on the above and when comfy, come on back for the aux fed subs discussion... But before then is the ringing out the mains and monitors discussion...

Thanks for all the good info there! I do believe my drummer has a 3 way crossover in his amp rack. So one amp for subs....one for mains....and at least one or two (ideally) for monitors then? I'm just now starting to train myself on the Presonus board so as I go along I'm sure I will pick up more things through trial and error! And yes it is a 16.4.2, sorry I failed to mention earlier!

 

[scottman72]

One other thing you'll need ... At the very least you need to have a decent wireless rig so you can get out front during sound check. Great if another player in the band can do the same. That and a notebook, plus the scene saving ability of your mixer will go a long way towards being consistent.

I do have a good wireless and I used to run out FOH all the time in my old band just to make sure things were sounding ok, even though I didn't have control of the board. Never knew maybe the guitar player was mad at me that night and didn't put me in the mix lol. I'm just learning the features of this new board but it's the same board my old band had and I know we had saved setting for each club that we played. Seems really handy!

 

[scottman72]

Will that mixer not do a mono crossover output plus a monitor mix out?

The mixer has a "mono out" but I'm not sure how that relates to a crossover? I do know it has 6 aux sends for monitor mixes though

 

[WayneP]

If your subs are active (i.e. self-powered), you can get by using their internal crossover and run the mains full range.

In this scenario, there are a couple of connection options. You could use the mixer’s mono output to the amp driving the main speakers. Many amps have XLR or 1/4"connections for both signal inputs and outputs. If that’s the case you could run a mic cable from the mains amp’s output to the subwoofer. The sub should have its own output as well, so you could jump across to a second sub with another mic cable.

Alternately, you could use the mixer’s left and right outputs and send one to the mains amp, and one to the subs. However, this might limit the use of subgroups in the mixer.

If the subs are passive, you’ll need an outboard electronic crossover. You can ebay nice ones from Ashly, Rane etc. for cheap prices these days. I’d get one with 24 db/octave slopes.

In this scenario, you’d use the mixer’s mono output to the crossover. The crossover’s high output would go the amp driving the main speakers, and the low output would go to the amplifier driving the subwoofers. I’d suggest starting with a crossover frequency of 100 Hz, although those with direct experience with your specific speakers and subs might give a better recommendation.

A helpful tip, most amps have a “Parallel mode” you can engage that allows you to drive both channels with a single input cable (e.g. instead of using a “y” splitter).

Sounds like you’re already aware of using the the mixer’s AUX sends for the monitors. Most monitor speakers are 8-ohms, and most amplifiers can handle 4-ohms. Thus, you can use either one or two monitor speakers for each monitor mix.

For practical mixing tips, to avoid a muddy mix (which is caused by too many inputs generating too much bass), it’s best to set high pass filters on the mixer for most channels except the kick drum and bass guitar. Older analog mixers typically had a switch at a fixed frequency, but these days with most digital mixers you can adjust the roll-out frequency. I’d suggest ~100-125 for guitars and keyboards, ~200 Hz for vocals, ~80-100 for tom-tom mics. I’d high pass the kick as well, ~60-80 Hz. You can search on “muddy mix” here in the Live Sound section and finds lots of threads on this issue with additional clarification, tips and information.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
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[4Mal]

The OP's subs are passive.

There is no crossover in the 16.4.2.

1. Use the Presonus forum at Presonus.com - lot's of skilled advice there
2. Aux mix, split mode, channel 3 is aux input A. Bring your iPod/Walkman break music in there - do not use the tape inputs! (there is a Bug with tape inputs and using the load presets function that can cause the board to lock up. Not good...)

3. Routing. Is the heart of the board! Whatever is selected is what is being routed... I route my vocals to Subgroup 3. (Press select on a vox channel, press 3 in the group of buttons in the center that read sub1, sub2, sub3, Main. - It is the group of buttons to the right of where the load/copy/link functions are). Do not also press main - just sub3. Do that for all vocal channels.

Now select subgroup 3 and set the compressor to on and make your favored settings (more later). You now have consistent compression on vocals as a starting point and your overall vocal volume is on thr sub group 3 fader.

Finally select Sub Group 3 by pressing the buttons over the sub group 3 fader and then select Main from the routing buttons.

I put bass and drums on sub group 4 using the same process.

Oh right - this always trips me up. On the very right hand edge of the fat channel, there is the high pass. Underneath it is a switch with an ellipse with a line through it symbol. Kinds looks like the on/off for the high pass. It isn't. The switch is to invert the polarity of the input. Set the a high Pass to 0 to bypass it. Not understanding that invert switch is deadly...

 

[4Mal]

Wayne, even though you can run subs off the mono and run the tops full range - yeah I've done it in a pinch. It is far from ideal... For me subs are dual purpose. The first is to help project a full range sound at volume. The second is insurance by keeping the lows out of my tops, the MTBF of my tops is increased... Sounds like the OP has the bits and pieces to put together a fully active setup anyway.

... And on the 16.4.2 there is one main out fader that controls a mono out as well as left and right.

In my rig, I take one of the 6 aux groups and dedicate it to subs. Route my low end stuff there as well as to main, either through a sub-group or not. The aux 6 goes to the subs while L&R go to the tops. Using a stereo two way x-over, I set one side as the lpf and the other as the hpf. Want stereo ? Use 2 x-overs...

I use old Brook Siren mini-drive x-overs. I wish Harmon would bring the BSS internal routing and custom filter abilities to the DBX Driverack lineup... Those mini-drives aren't getting younger though they still sound great...

 

[4Mal]

Bobby Owlinski's book available on amazon isn't a bad primer on the Studio Live series. I bought it a couple of years into owning the board and well I'd already learned that stuff for the most part. Wish I'd had it starting out though. Hanging onto my copy just as a hard copy reference.