Newbies and Nice Basses

[Dr. Cheese]

I think that "getting one's money" out of a bass is a personal judgement that only the buyer can make. For some, hanging it on the wall is enough, and anyone who presumes to tell them otherwise is far off the mark. IMHO, playability/setup/low action can benefit a beginner even more than a pro. The less you have to fight the instrument to make it submit, the smoother you can play.

Realistically, if your first bass is really expensive, you are probably grown, and of course, you can do what you want with your money. If someone is buying for you, or you have to struggle to buy a bass yourself, you can take comfort in knowing that a budget bass can be great, and you can even get
A really nice action on most budget basses.

 

[RustyAxe]

My point is that a good action is probably wasted on someone who really has not yet developed a touch. Although getting a nice bass is great for those with the money, a newbie needs to actually learn how to play before he or she can really get something out of a nicer bass.

That's like saying an apprentice carpenter doesn't need sharp saws. Students (especially!) need a decent bass with good action. Fighting the instrument is one major reason people throw up their hands and quit before they even get to know the instrument. I bought a back up bass a year ago that belonged to a student (not MY student) who gave it up because it was "too hard". The action at the neck joint was 1/2" ... the nut slots were uneven, and it had a tall fret or two. I went so far as to set up the bass while I was there and asked the young man if he'd like to give it another try with the bass properly fixed. But, no, he was done.

 

[Danhight88]

My first bass was a Silvertone Paul Stanley model...why his ugly guitar was made into a bass I dunno.

 

[StuartV]

Man, some of you just want to argue for the sake of arguing!

Doc Cheese is right on! Apparently, some of just don't have enough experience to appreciate what he means when he says, just for example, "nice action". What you consider to be "nice action" is action that other people, like maybe Cheese, would play and say "that's okay, but I would prefer it much lower". I thought I knew what "nice action" was until a buddy (who is a much better player than I am) let me try out a really nice bass of his. IT actually had really nice action. And made my MIA G&L and EBMM basses suddenly seem kind of shabby in comparison. Not to worry, I took mine to a really good tech and got them Plek'ed (or re-Plek'ed, as the case may be) and setup so they ended up just as good as my friend's, but I digress.

The point I got from Doc's OP was one I totally agree with. An expensive bass can (or at least should be able to) be setup with much lower action than what a newbie can take advantage of. That ability to take a low setup is part of what you're getting for your money. And no newb is going to be able to play it with a setup that is that low. I'm not a newb, but I'm definitely not a very good bassist and I've had several higher end basses that arrived with action so low that I could only play them if I played very slowly and totally focused on my technique. I.e. I couldn't play them for any real work. But, I am knowledgeable enough to tell that somebody with much better technique than I have would be able to play them just fine.

The factors that go into a bass being able to take a TRULY nice action include good wood, good finishing, excellent fretwork, and an expert setup. Which are exactly the things you should get with a more expensive bass. A newb may get SOME of the benefit of a more expensive bass just by virtue of looking nicer in his or her hands, hanging on a wall, etc.. But, they are just not going to get the full benefit of that extra money because they don't have the skill/technique to take advantage of what the higher end bass CAN offer.

When you can buy an SX for $100-something that will take a "decent" setup, Doc's point (which I agree with) is that there is no advantage to a beginner in spending much more than that. It's not going to help them play better or learn faster. Nobody is saying people should learn on stupid high action. We're just saying super low action would be even more frustrating (at least, it is for me, to have buzzing on every note because my technique is too ham-fisted), so there is no practical reason to spend a lot more money on a bass that CAN take a super low setup.

 

[lomo]

you can take comfort in knowing that a budget bass can be great, and you can even get
A really nice action on most budget basses.

I fully agree with this.

 

[StuartV]

Oh, and I want to add, the "better" electronics in higher end basses are another case where MOST newbs will get no benefit. It takes experience to develop an ear that can actually tell a difference between what the "experts" consider good versus not-as-good.

It's like the guys who post about their offshore made, less-expensive versions of some MIA basses. You see many posts on here about how they are just as good as the MIA versions. And I'm sure some of them are. But, I'm also sure there are a lot of those posts where the true story is that the poster simply doesn't have a discerning enough ear/feel/technique to recognize the differences, but it you did a blind test using a player with more skill and a more discerning ear, that player would be able to distinguish the more expensive version of the bass pretty much every time.

So, for newbs, again, there is not really a reason to pay more for "better" electronics (beyond ones that have basic reliability). The vast majority of them won't be able to really hear the difference between less expensive and more expensive anyway.

 

[john_g]

I personally love the fact that newbs buy expensive basses...lose interest...and sell them to me at a fraction of the price. =) Oh, and I am also totally behind low test scores in schools. We need more garbage men!

 

[Fuzzbass]

IMHO whether you are a newbie or not, buy the best instrument that you can afford.
The better the instrument is the more likely that you will be inspired to play it frequently.
And the more you play, the better you will become.

This may be a semantic nitpick, but I disagree with "buy the best bass you can afford". One of the reasons is given below: resale value if you (or your child) decide not to pursue the instrument.

The bigger problem I have with the statement is, how does a newbie know what's best? Does best mean most expensive he can afford? A newbie with a huge budget could get a Smith, MTD USA, Fodera. Then what happens if his bandmates want him to play a traditional looking bass?

Some boutiques have a traditional look, but I agree with Dr. Cheese: a n00b shouldn't go for broke on his first bass. Affordable imports can be set up with amazing action. One of the stars of a TalkBass GTG in Virginia many years ago was an fretless SX Jazz bass that had low action and had killer mwah. So... even if he can afford a boutique, I think a newb should begin on a relatively inexpensive FSO (Fender Shaped Object)... maxing out at US Fender or Music Man (non-CS). Once the n00b gets to intermediate stage and has a better idea of what's better for him, then he can upgrade.

I personally love the fact that newbs buy expensive basses...lose interest...and sell them to me at a fraction of the price. =)

^^^^^

 

[ConnManX]

I hope you are not talking about me because I did not say that. What I did say is that budget basses do sound good, and that a person with a budget P or J, or even a budget modern active bass is going to sound like the person with a much more expensive bass. I noted that differences are usually in the hardware and finish of basses. Unless is a bass is dirt cheap like my used Affinity beater, it can be nicely modded for a modest sum. If you can afford a Fodera for a first bass fine. As I said before, it will be a while before the newbie will be good enough to really get her or his money out of such a fine bass.

I agree. I'm a newbie who bought a nice bass to "grow into."

 

[WoodyG3]

Wow.

I agree with Dr. Cheese that there are lots of budget priced basses that sound good and will be able to be set up well. Many of us remember the cheap guitars and basses of the past that had ridiculously high action, hurt to play, and generally turned many people away from playing.

I also agree with people who are saying that there is no reason for a new player to limit themselves to a budget bass. I've heard people say things like "that guy isn't good enough to deserve such an expensive bass." That's a crock. If someone worked to earn the money, they deserve whatever they decide to spend it on. Chances are that many people will advance faster as players if they buy a bass they really like.

 

[lomo]

The bigger problem I have with the statement is, how does a newbie know what's best? Does best mean most expensive he can afford? A newbie with a huge budget could get a Smith, MTD USA, Fodera. Then what happens if his bandmates want him to play a traditional looking bass?






^^^^^

Yeah, maybe, but I see daily posts by experienced players who are selling/buying basses because they are "moving in a different direction", "getting rid of their 4s (or 5s)", "going fretless", "getting out of fretless", "wanting a more modern
tone", yada yada yada. For some (like me and Dr Fromage), what pleases us is often a fickle, moving target, regardless of our level of experience. I have several basses, and which one gives me the most pleasure playing varies daily.

 

[Dug2]

BS.

A nice playing bass is nice for anyone, newbie or not. Not saying expensive, I'm saying nice. No need to be expensive to be nice.

A nice bass probably benefits a newbie more than an experienced player who can probably manage to get any bass to work decently.

i agree, good answer

 

[G On Bass]

IMHO whether you are a newbie or not, buy the best instrument that you can afford.
The better the instrument is the more likely that you will be inspired to play it frequently.
And the more you play, the better you will become.

Another +1.

A good bass capable of super low action is also capable of higher, "Newbie-sized" action. It can then lowered as touch and technique improve. No reason to limit yourself or force a bass change...

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Man, some of you just want to argue for the sake of arguing!

Doc Cheese is right on! Apparently, some of just don't have enough experience to appreciate what he means when he says, just for example, "nice action". What you consider to be "nice action" is action that other people, like maybe Cheese, would play and say "that's okay, but I would prefer it much lower". I thought I knew what "nice action" was until a buddy (who is a much better player than I am) let me try out a really nice bass of his. IT actually had really nice action. And made my MIA G&L and EBMM basses suddenly seem kind of shabby in comparison. Not to worry, I took mine to a really good tech and got them Plek'ed (or re-Plek'ed, as the case may be) and setup so they ended up just as good as my friend's, but I digress.

The point I got from Doc's OP was one I totally agree with. An expensive bass can (or at least should be able to) be setup with much lower action than what a newbie can take advantage of. That ability to take a low setup is part of what you're getting for your money. And no newb is going to be able to play it with a setup that is that low. I'm not a newb, but I'm definitely not a very good bassist and I've had several higher end basses that arrived with action so low that I could only play them if I played very slowly and totally focused on my technique. I.e. I couldn't play them for any real work. But, I am knowledgeable enough to tell that somebody with much better technique than I have would be able to play them just fine.

The factors that go into a bass being able to take a TRULY nice action include good wood, good finishing, excellent fretwork, and an expert setup. Which are exactly the things you should get with a more expensive bass. A newb may get SOME of the benefit of a more expensive bass just by virtue of looking nicer in his or her hands, hanging on a wall, etc.. But, they are just not going to get the full benefit of that extra money because they don't have the skill/technique to take advantage of what the higher end bass CAN offer.

When you can buy an SX for $100-something that will take a "decent" setup, Doc's point (which I agree with) is that there is no advantage to a beginner in spending much more than that. It's not going to help them play better or learn faster. Nobody is saying people should learn on stupid high action. We're just saying super low action would be even more frustrating (at least, it is for me, to have buzzing on every note because my technique is too ham-fisted), so there is no practical reason to spend a lot more money on a bass that CAN take a super low setup.

+100

Listen to a really good player like Jauqo III-X or MikeBass here on TB, and those guys have speed and articulation on low action basses with which a newbie would not be able to produce an audible note. If a newbie bought a bass like Cirrus, which is not super expensive used, but can take a very low action, it will be at least a year or two before that student will be able to really take advantage of what the bass can offer.

 

[Altitude]

If you are a newbie and you don't have a "nice" bass, don't worry about it! You probably don't play well enough to get most out of a higher end bass.

First, these days, most budget basses sound very good. Recently, I have been playing an Affinity P-bass that I bought for $57, and it gets a proper P-bass tone. I was offered a gig last night after a choir heard me play it. My church, especially the youth group is going for more of a Praise and Worship sound instead of Urban Gospel, and a Pbass works quite well. The P even works with the urban material. I don't want to brag, but my tone on the Affinity is very close to the tone on the 55/64 I had (I may have to buy another!)

The difference between the two basses is in wood quality, fretwork, and hardware. The Affinity has really bad tuners and a rickety bridge. I had to shim to get action high instead of unplayable. I will play until I buy another P because it would not make economic sense to mod such a cheap bass.

My point is that a good action is probably wasted on someone who really has not yet developed a touch. Although getting a nice bass is great for those with the money, a newbie needs to actually learn how to play before he or she can really get something out of a nicer bass.

Even those of us who have been playing for decades should probably spend more time in the shed and less time picking out our next custom build.

 

[Altitude]

I don't think Cheese meant for this to be a thread about action - but I really like what Patitucci says about it on his website.

Personally I am a low action guy, but it's probably because I'm at a point in my life where I don't play every day, my callouses are not there, and my endurance is low. During times when I have been gigging 6 or 7 times a month, I care less about action. At those times, it doesn't bother me one way or the other, as long as it's not ridiculously high.

Here are Patitucci's comments. Check out the FAQ section of his website for more; there's some good stuff there.

***

STRING HEIGHT: *For both acoustic and electric bass, you need enough clearance between the string and fingerboard so you can pull a sound out of your bass. *If the string is too low and right on top of the fingerboard (or frets on the electric), your dynamic range between your softest and loudest sounds will be smaller. *For the acoustic bass, the top of the bass won't vibrate as much and you won't be generating as much sound. *You won't get as thick a sound and you may get noise when you dig in and have to play stronger. *For electric bass, again, I feel that the instrument must vibrate well, even though it is most often a solid piece of wood and there are pickups involved. *It is still an instrument that is initially acoustic. *So, you still need some room between the string and the fingerboard. *It seems to me that many players sacrifice sound on both acoustic and electric, opting for convenience and greater ease of playing. *You have to find the balance between ease of playing and getting a nice full sound with ample dynamic range. *I have experimented a lot over the years and have my action on both instruments at a moderate place. *I seem to have my action on electric higher than many players and more like my hero - James Jamerson (who played both acoustic and electric). *This is not a value judgment, but a subjective preference.

Now, if the string is too high off the fingerboard on acoustic bass, you can actually wind up getting lots of noise, because you have to play so hard to get the note started. *You can wind up with the top of the bass not vibrating freely because you are putting too much energy/sound pressure into that part of the bass and it starts to compress and vibrate less! *Then, the irony is, getting a smaller and compressed sound when you wanted a large open sound. *You can also hurt your hands, especially if your technique is not developed and you are playing with too much tension in both hands. Some people wind up with tendon problems, etc. *Also, if the strings are too high, you will again have problems controlling your dynamic range, because you will have to play hard to get the note started and subtlety will be sacrificed. *Pitch problems can also occur if your hand position gets compromised in your struggle to hold down the notes so they will sustain.

With the electric bass, if you have the action too high, you can even have pitch problems and sometimes pull the string sharp with your left hand. *You have to be careful with your left hand if you are playing with too much tension, trying to hold the notes down. *Some people get tendon problems from that. *You also have to be careful not to play too hard with your right hand as it relates to where you set the pickup height - you don't want the string bouncing off the pickup because your action is higher and you are playing too hard with your right hand.

 

[ejaggers]

I agree with Cheese on all of his points except one.
Quote: “...it would not make economic sense to mod such a cheap (Affinity) bass.”

Affinity’s have nice wood, nice finish, and mine has a neck to die for. So I have modded mine to the max, and I challenge anyone to do a blind A/B test against a much more expensive bass. The only original parts on my AFN P is the body, neck, and 3 of the tuners (because of the hipshot drop D). In fact, I can’t think of a better platform to mod, because really good parts that fit are plentiful, and can be found cheap it you look around. For instance, I paid $60 for a Lindy Fralin pup.

057912

 

[chadds]

Whoa!

Why fight an instrument. Folks give up playing because of this. The better the action the better one can develop one's touch and tone. If the action and setup are poor how will the newbie know they are progressing? When will they hear that pure tone they achieved followed by that nast one?

Middle path.

Get the best you can afford.
Buy a good used instrument so you can recoup it's value minus some "rental fee" from your years of use.

Have it set up buy a reputable tech.

Love making music.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I agree with cheese on all of his points except one. Quote: “...it would not make economic sense to mod such a cheap (Affinity) bass.” Affinity’s have nice wood, and mine has a neck to die for. So I have modded mine to the max, and I challenge anyone to do a blind A/B test against a much more expensive bass. The only original parts on my AFN P is the body, neck, and 3 of the tuners (because of the hipshot drop D). In fact, I can’t think of a better platform to mod, because really good parts that fit are plentiful, and can be found cheap it you look around. For instance, I paid $60 for a Fralin pup.

057912

Good points!

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Whoa!

Why fight an instrument. Folks give up playing because of this. The better the action the better one can develop one's touch and tone. If the action and setup are poor how will the newbie know they are progressing? When will they hear that pure tone they achieved followed by that nast one?

Middle path.

Get the best you can afford.
Buy a good used instrument so you can recoup it's value minus some "rental fee" from your years of use.

Have it set up buy a reputable tech.

Love making music.

My whole point is to push newbies towards making music instead of obsessing about gear. If I could go back and talk to 15 year old me, I would say take your lessons, buy a good bass when you can and keep taking lessons and gigging. Looking at catalogs and ads does zilch for your playing.