Double Bass Noble tube preamp

[Wasnex]

My experience is that they're not so different - I have an Eminence EUB, scale and setup are pretty similar, I don't find it hard at all to go back and forth between the 2. I use the EUB alot with loud gigs with a NewGrass band and I can dial in a really decent sound. I used to have it strung the same as my DB but now using Perpetuals on the DB, and don't want to spring for another $200+ for the EUB.

I used to switch between EUB and DB and it was easy when I could hear the instruments, and impossible when I could not. Basically if I can hea,r I can make intonation corrections by ear, but frequently when playing the bow in concert band, I play just below the level where I can hear clearly in order to blend with the low brass.

Under this circumstance you have to know the instrument well enough to rely on muscle memory. IMHO this requires a certain time playing exclusively on one instrument. So when I was preparing for concert band, the EUB would stay in the case.

I had no probably switching between fretted bass guitar and DB.

 

[Ric Vice]

My experience is that they're not so different - I have an Eminence EUB, scale and setup are pretty similar, I don't find it hard at all to go back and forth between the 2. I use the EUB alot with loud gigs with a NewGrass band and I can dial in a really decent sound. I used to have it strung the same as my DB but now using Perpetuals on the DB, and don't want to spring for another $200+ for the EUB.

Well, Yes and No I guess. Since I purposely had the neck and fingerboard shaped to copy my DB, the difference between the action on the two instruments is very close. That said, even though my Clevenger EUB has the piezo elements mounted into a diamond shaped, spruce bridge resonator block, with a maple bridge it doesn't sound quite my a DB soloed out. What it does allow me to do is play jazz, outdoors, in really high volume situations with
the terribly hot and humid weather we frequently get here in St. Louis during the summer months. It blends fairly well with the other instruments and with the right EQ I can fool most of the audience.

 

[elmer]

Well, back to the topic once again... This is interesting and I would really like to hear a simple soundclip demo where you plug into your amp with and without that Noble tube preamp with your double bass. Maybe somebody could borrow one to mr. Rick Wolff

 

[Ric Vice]

Possibly,
I thought Chris had already posted some, but he's a busy guy with the teaching and gigging. I don't think Noble's handing them out for trials, because frankly they are selling way to well, and
they just can't blow them out the door. There's about a 13 week wait period on a standard order, $280 extra if you want it faster. There are plenty of EB demos out there they sound really good
but in the end that doesn't tell you much about their sound with a Double Bass.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Well, back to the topic once again... This is interesting and I would really like to hear a simple soundclip demo where you plug into your amp with and without that Noble tube preamp with your double bass.

...There are plenty of EB demos out there they sound really good
but in the end that doesn't tell you much about their sound with a Double Bass.

I agree with @Ric Vice on his point. I've been working on the performance clips for the Noble video review, and it's just not as simple as "how does my amp sound without it versus with it?", although the fact that I just shelled out a considerable amount of change to buy one proves (to me at least) that I believe that my amp sounds a lot better with it.

The problem attempting this sort of demonstration in a clip is twofold:
1) With double bass, the only way to make such a clip that actually gets at the question is to get the bass in another room from the amp, and record only the signal from the amp. Then there's the question of how to set the EQ on each unit to try to make it a controlled experiment, which is nearly impossible since EQ settings on the two units to get the "best sound" (also subjective) from either will be completely different.
2) The biggest problem, though, is that for us DB players, most of our amplification is as a blending tool, as I mentioned above. The end result is all about the mixture of the acoustic sound and the amplified sound (situational exceptions mentioned above notwithstanding). And in this, there are so many variables that I'm not sure a simple clip will answer the question for anyone but the person playing in the room they are playing in.

In spite of all of these obstacles, I'm going to attempt to address the blending issue in the review.

 

[Daniel Immel]

Are these pickups you're referring too? Or Mics? I haven't heard of either. The Felix, yes of course; but the Yamahiko and Ischill??? I'm off guard here.

I have been using a Grace Felix with an Ischell and Yamahiko blended, then I send it to a Demeter Tube Direct (similar to Noble) before the amp. Sounds utterly stellar.

 

[Wasnex]

Are these pickups you're referring too? Or Mics? I haven't heard of either. The Felix, yes of course; but the Yamahiko and Ischill??? I'm off guard here.

A quick Google search got me here:
Double Bass Pickups – ISCHELL
Double Bass Pickup System

 

[Ric Vice]

My experience, like yours is that above a certain volume level, once the sound blends with the other instruments the general audience cannot discern much of a difference nor do the really care. Playing the EUB is a different experience for me, because there is no blending of the acoustic sound as there is with a DB. That said, that blending all vanishes once you get to loud anyway.

 

[Ric Vice]

I used to switch between EUB and DB and it was easy when I could hear the instruments, and impossible when I could not. Basically if I can hear I can make intonation corrections by ear, but frequently when playing the bow in concert band, I play just below the level where I can hear clearly in order to blend with the low brass.

Under this circumstance you have to know the instrument well enough to rely on muscle memory. IMHO this requires a certain time playing exclusively on one instrument. So when I was preparing for concert band, the EUB would stay in the case.

Similar but different experience here. On several ocassions I've done appearances with concert bands and wind ensembles. The first time I did it was in college, with a Ampeg Baby Bass, and the SB-12. It worked great and I could hear just fine. The SB-12 at 15 watts RMS gave
me just enough sound to ballance with the ensemble. Later on, I did several engagments, with a full on concert band, using a Clevenger Keyhole Bass with a Diamond Sonance Bridge ( it has two piezo sensors for bowing and a third for pizzicato) into a Gallien Krueger 200MB or a Walter Woods
MI-100-8 that sounded even better. Since the Clevenger EUB sounded quite good in the mix, I never used my Mirecourt Double Bass, actually I probably wouldn't have used it anyway, because the concerts were outside in the middle of summer, here in St. Louis.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

This is a work in progress: Nano+ pedal board for double bass. Rolls PB23 provides 48v phantom power to condenser mic. The Dynasty pedal is passive; it converts balanced signal to unbalanced instrument for entry to Sonic Research ST-300 Mini tuner (also acts as mute switch to amplified sound) and on into the Noble dual-tube preamp/DI. The two units on right side can be replaced by the new EDB2 with 48v phantom for mixing in a pickup signal with the mic. I estimate the new EDB2 form factor will be about the same size as those two pedals. BTW, the tuner and Rolls are powered from the Noble. For the Rolls, I used one of the Noble's standard power cables plugged into the yellow DC output jack as recommended by designer/builder Jack Roan. Everything is velcro'd to the pedal board. Easy to move around and use.

 

[flatback]

Im totally interested but not convinced yet that running a mic thru a tube preamp is better then not. I keep wanting to like it but the sound gets too unwieldy. I end up running the pickup thru the tube and the mic thru the SS (and FOH). But I sure have not done more then some unfruitful attempts (thru an amp) so I am curious what you come up with.
is that where you keep the eq?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Finally finished my video review of the Noble preamp. The video includes some philosophy of amplification stuff as well.



It's pretty long, so the index should be useful. Also all of the playing examples are in black and white, so if you're scrolling through the video looking for those, they should be easy to find that way. Index below.

Noble Review Index
0:00 Titles and intro sound example
0:53 Introduction
2:30 Review overview and unit features
6:55 Amplification Philosophy: MBOL (My Bass Only Louder)
11:58 Acoustic Recording Examples from 1’ away and 10’ away
12:36 Amplification Philosophy: The Skeleton and the Skin
20:47 Recording examples: Blending acoustic and direct signals
23:21 Performance Example: Acoustic left/Noble direct right
25:21 Discussion of same; limitations of direct signal for double bass
27:57 Performance Example: Acoustic/Direct switching back and forth
29:57 Discussion/analysis of the blended sound
30:31 Performance Example: Acoustic/Direct blended equally
32:31 Discussion of the blended sound
33:27 Performance Example: Acoustic/Direct blend with drums
35:27 Discussion of blending acoustic and amplified signals
38:20 Performance Example: Blended acoustic and amplified signals
40:20 Discussion of same, wrapping up
42:58 Performance Example: Blended acoustic and amplified signals with drums

 

[vanselus]

Wow, that's a fantastic master class on amplification - so much great information! Thanks for the shout out, Chris, glad the Noble captivates you as it does me. Jack is an artist and a gentleman, and Chris you sound fantastic as always.

Unless I missed you talking about it, folks should also notice the great dynamic range in the video, something I really appreciate about the Noble. All the feels come through.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks, Todd. There are a number of things i didn't mention, because the review is already way too long as it is. But for the record, the DI is great both live and in the studio. In the studio, while I don't use a pickup signal on the final tracks, it is a godsend for tracking purposes making it far easier to hear intonation.

Also, as you mention, the dynamic range and subtlety of the unit is fantastic on both ends of the spectrum. Quiet is quiet and clear, and when you dig in the sound doesn't have those nasty edges on them that often occur when you push a piezo pickup too hard.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Really good points, Chris, particularly how "MBOL" is a matter of perspective. Hadn't considered that one! It may be a good idea, during studio tracking, to leave the Noble EQ completely flat. If you use gig settings (yours being 9:00 bass, 12:00 treble, HPF on), that tonal structure is baked into the recording. Kind of limits options in post when the mixer is trying to balance with other instruments. Overall, lots of good ideas in your video for approaching amplified double bass. I've been using a Noble for 3.5 years and can't imagine not having it in the chain.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@Ukiah Bass - good points! But as I said I never use the direct signal in the final mix. If I were going to do that, then you are correct that flat would be the way to go.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Finally finished my video review of the Noble preamp. The video includes some philosophy of amplification stuff as well.



It's pretty long, so the index should be useful. Also all of the playing examples are in black and white, so if you're scrolling through the video looking for those, they should be easy to find that way. Index below.

Noble Review Index
0:00 Titles and intro sound example
0:53 Introduction
2:30 Review overview and unit features
6:55 Amplification Philosophy: MBOL (My Bass Only Louder)
11:58 Acoustic Recording Examples from 1’ away and 10’ away
12:36 Amplification Philosophy: The Skeleton and the Skin
20:47 Recording examples: Blending acoustic and direct signals
23:21 Performance Example: Acoustic left/Noble direct right
25:21 Discussion of same; limitations of direct signal for double bass
27:57 Performance Example: Acoustic/Direct switching back and forth
29:57 Discussion/analysis of the blended sound
30:31 Performance Example: Acoustic/Direct blended equally
32:31 Discussion of the blended sound
33:27 Performance Example: Acoustic/Direct blend with drums
35:27 Discussion of blending acoustic and amplified signals
38:20 Performance Example: Blended acoustic and amplified signals
40:20 Discussion of same, wrapping up
42:58 Performance Example: Blended acoustic and amplified signals with drums

That is likely the most thorough gear review i have ever seen, as well as including some great wisdom on amplification of the upright overall.

 

[flatback]

Thanks Chris for the extensive review of the Noble. As someone who has been thru a huge amount of amplification gear over the years and now finds a natural diminution in interest (based on having solved the problem adequately) I find that the Tube preamp coupled with a good piezo is the compromise I can live with.
What the tubepre/piezo + the natural acoustic sound of the bass represents is the best, simplest, shared reality between player and audience and I'm glad you focused on that in your review. It is really in the high end information and the taming of the piezo "quack" (...and lack of feedback) that the Tube preamp shines in providing enough realism to allow the player to just get to playing and stop obsessing about the sound.
There are some differences in the way tube sets or circuits, get there, different granularity in the amplification factor, slightly different sound stages etc. but really it comes down to the feedback loop between the player and the nature of the sound entering his/her ear while playing (with other players/simultaneous sounds).
The tube pre I use is similar to the Noble, it uses a different tube set that has it's own characteristics, but the EQ is very similar and what you say about the simplicity of this type EQ is so true: it sounds good gig to gig in a way that stops restless hands from messing with it and you find yourself playing without altering much. Just great.
I love microphones, I really do, they are better, truer, wider, more live and genuine sounding etc. but they fail me time and time again in a live setting, because of the variables that I to overcome to dial it in (if I ever can) whereas the tube preamp gets to emulating that enough and with such ease that my ear is satisfied.
A lot of cats got their feet wet with the Black Box by Brad Sarno and it is a great inexpensive way get into tube preamps, but IMHO the sweetspot is with devices like the Noble and the Sarno V8 and (possibly the Jules Monique.) preamps where you can control the Treble. Controlling the treble knob is where the air is (mostly I spike it and leave it like you).
Anyway nice review, I love that Bird head and have been using the fractal fingering possibilities to come up with different phrasing variations...Bird endures.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks, Piro. I agree with pretty much all you wrote above. Just a note to say that that particular bird head is pretty friendly except for the first ending, where I ended up choosing low TP in no man's land as the only way I could play both legato and reasonably in tune. It's a great head for learning to play in the no-man's-land part of the neck, and also for exploring the relaxed hand style I've been working with for the past few years.

Confirmation, though - there's a head that will tie the fingers into knots more than once!

It sounds like the V8 is doing for you what the Noble is doing for me, which is a welcome thing! Glad we each found our bliss, and that there are multiple options out there for bassists at this time.

 

[shwashwa]

Thanks Chris for the extensive review of the Noble. As someone who has been thru a huge amount of amplification gear over the years and now finds a natural diminution in interest (based on having solved the problem adequately) I find that the Tube preamp coupled with a good piezo is the compromise I can live with.
What the tubepre/piezo + the natural acoustic sound of the bass represents is the best, simplest, shared reality between player and audience and I'm glad you focused on that in your review. It is really in the high end information and the taming of the piezo "quack" (...and lack of feedback) that the Tube preamp shines in providing enough realism to allow the player to just get to playing and stop obsessing about the sound.
There are some differences in the way tube sets or circuits, get there, different granularity in the amplification factor, slightly different sound stages etc. but really it comes down to the feedback loop between the player and the nature of the sound entering his/her ear while playing (with other players/simultaneous sounds).
The tube pre I use is similar to the Noble, it uses a different tube set that has it's own characteristics, but the EQ is very similar and what you say about the simplicity of this type EQ is so true: it sounds good gig to gig in a way that stops restless hands from messing with it and you find yourself playing without altering much. Just great.
I love microphones, I really do, they are better, truer, wider, more live and genuine sounding etc. but they fail me time and time again in a live setting, because of the variables that I to overcome to dial it in (if I ever can) whereas the tube preamp gets to emulating that enough and with such ease that my ear is satisfied.
A lot of cats got their feet wet with the Black Box by Brad Sarno and it is a great inexpensive way get into tube preamps, but IMHO the sweetspot is with devices like the Noble and the Sarno V8 and (possibly the Jules Monique.) preamps where you can control the Treble. Controlling the treble knob is where the air is (mostly I spike it and leave it like you).
Anyway nice review, I love that Bird head and have been using the fractal fingering possibilities to come up with different phrasing variations...Bird endures.

i wonder if its the tubes you like of if its the nature of the fender tone stack on your preamp that gives an inherent mid cut (which is where the piezo quack lives)? try it set flat, with the bass and treble and zero and the mids on 10 (this is flat on your preamp). i am a tube fan too, but i dont plug directly into the tube input. i first go into my solid state preamp for buffering and eq. i set the tube amp flat and get my eq from the external preamp. for me just running it through the tubes does improve the sound compared to running through a solid state amp with the same preamp settings, but that's a tube pre and power section.