Double Bass Noble tube preamp

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Impressions after a few gigs: so far, it's everything I hoped. I played a chamber jazz concert on Monday, and it sounded great in a minimalist "almost don't need an amp" sort of way. This morning I played with the faculty trio in a workshop where we played with a bunch of high school jazz students sitting in. This was a good test because I was using the Noble through average backline - one of those old GK MB amps that are all made of metal and usually sound less than stellar. Today, through the FX return, I was able to get a really good sound. And at home I've been practicing using it through my powered recording monitors, which is about the cleanest signal path I can imagine, and it sounds stellar.

The thing I'm noticing is that the EQ is very sensitive and I'll have to develop a feel for where to set it. The HPF switch is always on and I keep the treble at noon, but the bass knob is the key. The high end is always very smooth and sweet and the harmonics pop; the bass knob has a different sweet spot in every room and situation. It's the one variable I'm really going to have to learn to find the range on.

After some time I'm sure I'll do a full review, and I'm thinking that here at home it would be nice to record split screen with the bass on the opposite side of the room from the monitors with a mic on each source (i.e. - acoustic, and amplified). I never like using a direct line for a review because what the mic hears is always more like what the ears hear when the signal is amplified. Will scheme on this a bit before attempting and get some more gig situations under the belt in order to give a more balanced assessment. So far, so good!

 

[vanselus]

My experience saturday was similar, Noble into the Doubler fx loop and a NL-112 for a big band gig. HPF on, treble at noon, bass worked perfectly at about 1 o'clock. Small room for an 18-piece band with loads of windows, thankfully lots of people to soak it up. The bass projected really well and was tight, never boomy even though I was stuck almost in a corner. At one point the drummer asked me to turn down a bit and all I did was ease off on the bass knob slightly, he was happy - and stayed with the pulse.

Rehearsing funk on a p-bass/flats today, same rig - the only change was flipping the HPF off...so simple, so effective.

 

[Reiska]

Any experiences on piezo - Noble - arco combo? And if anyone knows if these are available somewhere in EU?

Thanks

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Here's a video of the full concert where I took the Noble out for a full spin in public for the first time since I got it. This was the chamber concert with classical faculty and students mixed with the piano/bass/guitar faculty from our jazz dept. These concerts are weird and esoteric, and lots of fun because they are different.



Reviewing this video is part of my learning process with the Noble. Listening back, I would dial the bass knob back a bit. It sounded fine onstage for that "not really amplified" sound, but is a little thicker than I intended on the amplified part of the sound. Live and learn! I like how the little tiny amp on a chair makes no visual impression when it's sitting behind me though, and will use that again in the future.

 

[statsc]

The Noble finally arrived today and I have been testing it through a PJB CUB. A few first impressions and then I will put it through some gig paces before giving a more in-depth review.

- I don't know what it technically does to the signal from the Full Circle, but what comes out of this thing sounds much more focused, aligned, and clear than the Full Circle signal does without it. It's like driving a car immediately after cleaning the windshield; you can hear details that you couldn't before, even though logically they were all there the whole time.

- I would love to be able to say that it "gets rid of the piezo quack/honk" or whatever that sound is about piezos that we all grimace at. It doesn't do that exactly, but it mixes whatever that ugly frequency is back underneath the surface of the sound so that it doesn't stick out, and instead lets it provide the punch that it's supposed to, but from behind the scenes, so you get to feel the unmistakeable strength of the sound without having to look at an unnaturally straining flexed muscle while doing so. Strong, but smooth and more natural somehow. Yeah, words kind of fail...

- My favorite part is the way the clarity of the high end of the sound enables me to intonate so much more easily and naturally. I'm assuming this must have something to do with the "upper order harmonics/rounder waveform/e=mc2/etc." tech speak that always emerges when tube amps are discussed, but whatever - to paraphrase a favorite old comedy sketch, "your honor, I'm just a bass player". And as a bass player, I can hear intonation much more quickly and clearly through this thing, and I like that.

- Last, I'm using an old trick that I stole from my old mentor Paul Warburton and setting the CUB on a chair that sits directly behind me and my stool. Anyone listening from the front will hear the sound of my bass with a warm blanket of richness around the sides. I'm going to try this for a concert on Monday night, a series that a colleague and I started entitled "faculty chamber jazz" where we play with various classical faculty at the school. Up until now I've always played unamplified with piano, string quartets, bowed double bass, clarinet, etc., and it's been great. But this year, three of the numbers feature classical saxophone quartets, and I've been straining my right hand trying to fit in the mix in the right place, so I'm gong to use the little tiny shoebox amp, but not let the audience see it. So far so good!

More after the concert...

View attachment 3569794

Nice chair! Oh yeah, the rig is nice too!

 

[Rayjay]

Any experiences on piezo - Noble - arco combo? And if anyone knows if these are available somewhere in EU?

Thanks

I bought mine for electric bass, but I used it as a preamp/DI for my double bass because “it was what I had laying around.” It blew me away! The Noble preamp loves a hot signal, and piezo pickups usually are. Amazing tone.

 

[Keithunem]

Here's a video of the full concert where I took the Noble out for a full spin in public for the first time since I got it. This was the chamber concert with classical faculty and students mixed with the piano/bass/guitar faculty from our jazz dept. These concerts are weird and esoteric, and lots of fun because they are different.



Reviewing this video is part of my learning process with the Noble. Listening back, I would dial the bass knob back a bit. It sounded fine onstage for that "not really amplified" sound, but is a little thicker than I intended on the amplified part of the sound. Live and learn! I like how the little tiny amp on a chair makes no visual impression when it's sitting behind me though, and will use that again in the future.

Really nice work Chris, and your equipment seemed to be holding up their part of the sound also. Hard to tell what other chains may have done in that environment but the Noble/PJB sounded great. Guitar player sounded great also...almost a 335 sound out of what looks like a “Grand Auditorium” thru a Henrickson perhaps?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Really nice work Chris, and your equipment seemed to be holding up their part of the sound also. Hard to tell what other chains may have done in that environment but the Noble/PJB sounded great. Guitar player sounded great also...almost a 335 sound out of what looks like a “Grand Auditorium” thru a Henrickson perhaps?

That guitar is a Buscarino virtuoso Craig Wagner signature arch top model, played by none other than Craig Wagner! He just got it and it's a really amazing guitar because of the way it can be made to sound either acoustic-ish or mildly electric in the usual arch top way. Craig and I came up together and he is an amazing musician and great guy. He has three handmade Buscarino guitars and would be the first to tell you that that he could never afford them if he wasn't an endorser. This signature model is a great example of "sometimes truly good things do happen to truly good people".

And the Henrickson is a crazy good little amp. I am always amazed at how big it sounds when I see it! The little PJB CUB amp is really nice right up until the point where it isn't any more. I think the size of the cabinet gives it less headroom than the other PJB combos, although the Noble allows me to get a bit more out of it than other preamps.

 

[Keithunem]

I’m convinced that I am going to add either a Noble or Octal V8 and am just waiting for a few comments on people who may get a chance to A/B them. I really like Brad and a friend of mine (Russ Pahl) is an endorser. I like the form factor of the Noble as I would probably put it on a pedal board. I’m sure both sound great but my gigs are mostly May thru September, so I have time. Really pretty happy with my current gear but have read too many convincing testimonies on both preamps that they’ve turned into “must have gear (MHG)”

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

There’s another aspect to it that maybe deserves its own topic: preamp gain versus master gain. I don’t think it’s psychoacoustics to say that the sound of a hot preamp signal into a mild master volume setting is different than a mild preamp setting into a high master volume setting is a different tone even at the same eventual volume level, or that there is a sweet spot to be had somewhere in there. Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I doubt that any electronic part is absolutely linear in its working range that is claimed to be linear. It might look like it is linear but there might be very small deviations. So amplifiers and filters might change the sound differently depending on the input level. So even below clipping there might be a change of sound with high input levels compared to much lower ones.

On the other hand a low level signal gets the same amount of noise added as a higher level signal in the preamp and that gets you more noise out of the cab with a lower input level and higher master setting than vice versa.

In earlier times (and still in recording) noise was the main problem, so the need for maximized input levels. Nowadays everyone can decide what is more important, sound or SN-ratio.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Have played a few more gigs with it, including the "proving ground" Nachbar gig last night. An ex-student who has been coming out to gigs and giving feedback on my sound for the last 15 years came up after the first set and asked "what are you doing different? That's the best tone you've had since 10 years ago when you used to mount that heavy EA cabinet up on a pole and mixed a mic in at the old jazz club". Considering that the Nachbar has no FOH like the jazz club did and that I'm not using a mic at all any more, I'll take that as a thumbs up on the Noble.

 

[Keithunem]

Have played a few more gigs with it, including the "proving ground" Nachbar gig last night. An ex-student who has been coming out to gigs and giving feedback on my sound for the last 15 years came up after the first set and asked "what are you doing different? That's the best tone you've had since 10 years ago when you used to mount that heavy EA cabinet up on a pole and mixed a mic in at the old jazz club". Considering that the Nachbar has no FOH like the jazz club did and that I'm not using a mic at all any more, I'll take that as a thumbs up on the Noble.

That’s great Chris, seems to be a little natural mojo in those tube preamps.

 

[Ric Vice]

.......: That's the best tone you've had since 10 years ago when you used to mount that heavy EA cabinet up on a pole and mixed a mic in at the old jazz club".

Would that perhaps have been ye olde VL 208. They were great cabinet but my they were heavy.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Would that perhaps have been ye olde VL 208. They were great cabinet but my they were heavy.

That's the one! And yes they were...

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In the beginning stages of working on a written and video review of the Noble and testing some methodologies. One thing that I usually don't like in reviews is too much reliance on the direct signal. To me, it doesn't really represent how any piece of gear is perceived by the audience on the gig. Of course the direct signal will have to be a part of the review because the unit is also a direct box, but I'm thinking beyond that in more practical terms WRT how to test the unit in a way that would more accurately reflect what you actually hear on the gig.

One interesting thing I played around with this evening is a three part comparison:
1) How the unit sounds with a set of stereo mics on the speakers from about 18" away (I'm using my studio monitors for the amplification part of the test as they are the cleanest path I know of).
2) How they sound the same way, but this time from 10' away.
3) How the unamplified bass sounds from 10' away.
4) Most importantly, how the amplified signal sounds when mixed with the acoustic sound of the bass - which if we are honest is what the audience hears on most gigs - from 10' away.

With the tests I ran tonight, not surprisingly the signal from close in sounded very direct-ish; not bad, but not exactly "natural", if you know what I mean. Then from 10' away (bass was in another room for this part), it sounded much better and more natural as the sound conformed to the room; it was still a bit zingy, but articulate, and better sounding now that the proximity effect from the close micing had dissipated. When I did another take sitting right between the monitors with the bass and the mic 10' away, the sound was really lovely and natural, with the amplified signal blending beautifully with the acoustic signal even though the amplified signal was a bit louder (also as the case may be on gigs with drummers).

I think this is what makes the Noble such a great unit for double bass: it supplies the perfect blending voice to help the acoustic sound carry. It sounds enough like it to be pleasing on its own, but when mixed with the acoustic sound it just becomes a part of it and makes it carry better without sounding "other-ish", for lack of a better word.

Still working on the methodology for the video, but very impressed with the unit at this point.

 

[Wasnex]

In the beginning stages of working on a written and video review of the Noble and testing some methodologies. One thing that I usually don't like in reviews is too much reliance on the direct signal. To me, it doesn't really represent how any piece of gear is perceived by the audience on the gig. Of course the direct signal will have to be a part of the review because the unit is also a direct box, but I'm thinking beyond that in more practical terms WRT how to test the unit in a way that would more accurately reflect what you actually hear on the gig.

One interesting thing I played around with this evening is a three part comparison:
1) How the unit sounds with a set of stereo mics on the speakers from about 18" away (I'm using my studio monitors for the amplification part of the test as they are the cleanest path I know of).
2) How they sound the same way, but this time from 10' away.
3) How the unamplified bass sounds from 10' away.
4) Most importantly, how the amplified signal sounds when mixed with the acoustic sound of the bass - which if we are honest is what the audience hears on most gigs - from 10' away.

With the tests I ran tonight, not surprisingly the signal from close in sounded very direct-ish; not bad, but not exactly "natural", if you know what I mean. Then from 10' away (bass was in another room for this part), it sounded much better and more natural as the sound conformed to the room; it was still a bit zingy, but articulate, and better sounding now that the proximity effect from the close micing had dissipated. When I did another take sitting right between the monitors with the bass and the mic 10' away, the sound was really lovely and natural, with the amplified signal blending beautifully with the acoustic signal even though the amplified signal was a bit louder (also as the case may be on gigs with drummers).

I think this is what makes the Noble such a great unit for double bass: it supplies the perfect blending voice to help the acoustic sound carry. It sounds enough like it to be pleasing on its own, but when mixed with the acoustic sound it just becomes a part of it and makes it carry better without sounding "other-ish", for lack of a better word.

Still working on the methodology for the video, but very impressed with the unit at this point.

IMHO judging the individual signals is really best, as their is a huge and unresolvable problem with integrating all of the sound fronts. And the problems will vary as you change the spatial relationships between the bass, speakers, and microphones

One problem is the difference in propagation delay. You have the sound traveling at pretty much the speed of light through the wires, minus any latency due to digital processing.

Then the sound emanating from each speaker and the bass travels at the speed of sound, but the starting point is different for each sound source. Latency is a problem here as well. For example the bass is typically between the amp and audience. So to make the bass and amp sound as one to the audience, the bass would have to be delayed in time to play with the amp, which of course is impossible. Unfortunately any latency in the system will magnify this problem by delaying the sound coming from your amp.

As I audio tech I often use a bit of digital delay to try mitigate some problems. For example I often delay the PA speakers back in time to approximately where the back line is. Of course this is not even close to a perfect solution to resolve all of the phase errors, but it is the best can do the at least align the leading edge of each note impulse, so the listener hears each sound source at approximately the same time.

Honestly it's a real mess and we audio types just do the best we can.

 

[Ric Vice]

IMHO judging the individual signals is really best, as their is a huge and unresolvable problem with integrating all of the sound fronts. And the problems will vary as you change the spatial relationships between the bass, speakers, and microphones

One problem is the difference in propagation delay. You have the sound traveling at pretty much the speed of light through the wires, minus any latency due to digital processing.

Then the sound emanating from each speaker and the bass travels at the speed of sound, but the starting point is different for each sound source. Latency is a problem here as well. For example the bass is typically between the amp and audience. So to make the bass and amp sound as one to the audience, the bass would have to be delayed in time to play with the amp, which of course is impossible. Unfortunately any latency in the system will magnify this problem by delaying the sound coming from your amp.

As I audio tech I often use a bit of digital delay to try mitigate some problems. For example I often delay the PA speakers back in time to approximately where the back line is. Of course this is not even close to a perfect solution to resolve all of the phase errors, but it is the best can do the at least align the leading edge of each note impulse, so the listener hears each sound source at approximately the same time.

Honestly it's a real mess and we audio types just do the best we can.

What he said, I need to take a nap.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

In the beginning stages of working on a written and video review of the Noble and testing some methodologies. One thing that I usually don't like in reviews is too much reliance on the direct signal. To me, it doesn't really represent how any piece of gear is perceived by the audience on the gig. Of course the direct signal will have to be a part of the review because the unit is also a direct box, but I'm thinking beyond that in more practical terms WRT how to test the unit in a way that would more accurately reflect what you actually hear on the gig.

One interesting thing I played around with this evening is a three part comparison:
1) How the unit sounds with a set of stereo mics on the speakers from about 18" away (I'm using my studio monitors for the amplification part of the test as they are the cleanest path I know of).
2) How they sound the same way, but this time from 10' away.
3) How the unamplified bass sounds from 10' away.
4) Most importantly, how the amplified signal sounds when mixed with the acoustic sound of the bass - which if we are honest is what the audience hears on most gigs - from 10' away.

With the tests I ran tonight, not surprisingly the signal from close in sounded very direct-ish; not bad, but not exactly "natural", if you know what I mean. Then from 10' away (bass was in another room for this part), it sounded much better and more natural as the sound conformed to the room; it was still a bit zingy, but articulate, and better sounding now that the proximity effect from the close micing had dissipated. When I did another take sitting right between the monitors with the bass and the mic 10' away, the sound was really lovely and natural, with the amplified signal blending beautifully with the acoustic signal even though the amplified signal was a bit louder (also as the case may be on gigs with drummers).

I think this is what makes the Noble such a great unit for double bass: it supplies the perfect blending voice to help the acoustic sound carry. It sounds enough like it to be pleasing on its own, but when mixed with the acoustic sound it just becomes a part of it and makes it carry better without sounding "other-ish", for lack of a better word.

Still working on the methodology for the video, but very impressed with the unit at this point.

I wouldn't lose sleep over recording tone from a speaker cab -- or acoustically at those extended distances. There are many variables in that realm. Even starting with a mandatory acoustically treated room, players will experience so many variables in their own environments that results would have low relative worth. That's why direct signals are the way to go in a product evaluation or comparison. In the end, all of read and listen to reviews while thinking: How does this compare to what I have now? Hard for a reviewer to please everyone with that perspective! Providing a "taste of potential" is a worthy objective.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I hear the dissent and don't disagree that it's impossible to cover all the variables. The meat of the video review will be delivered with a pan scheme that lets the viewer hear the amplified and/or direct signal on the left and the acoustic signal on the right, with both sides being normalized to the same controlled level so that neither one gains an unfair advantage.

But I also think this kind of misses the reality of what we actually use this gear for on gigs, so I'm going to try to find a way to represent that as well, even if in an admittedly limited way. Because to me, that's where the rubber meets the road on 95% of my gigs.