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Double Bass Noble tube preamp

I hear the dissent and don't disagree that it's impossible to cover all the variables. The meat of the video review will be delivered with a pan scheme that lets the viewer hear the amplified and/or direct signal on the left and the acoustic signal on the right, with both sides being normalized to the same controlled level so that neither one gains an unfair advantage.

But I also think this kind of misses the reality of what we actually use this gear for on gigs, so I'm going to try to find a way to represent that as well, even if in an admittedly limited way. Because to me, that's where the rubber meets the road on 95% of my gigs.


The point I was trying to make is there is so much variation from one gig to the next, that providing one example will not be statistically relevant. You might get great results on one get and awful results on the next. This is due to serendipity and the skill of your audio tech more than the quality of the Noble.

If possible, I suggest time aligning the two signals so they integrate as well as possible in your demo. Then you can pan left and right to compare and contrast the individual signals. IMHO this will be the most valid test. You will also be able to pan dead center to see how the signals integrate optimally, but this is somewhat problematic.

Even when time aligned, there will be variable phase errors between the original acoustic sound of the bass and the DI signal. The mics will be one source of phase shift and the Noble preamp circuitry may also introduce some degree of phase shift. Tone networks introduce variable phase shift depending upon settings. Speaker drivers and crossover also introduce phase shift. My point is there are potentially lots of points in your signal path that will invalidate your test of how well the two signal integrate, even if you account for differences in propagation delay.

Sorry. I am trying to be helpful, but I know just enough to be irritating :wacky::bag:.

Perhaps the most important thing is to have some fun :thumbsup:.
 
"But I also think this kind of misses the reality of what we actually use this gear for on gigs, so I'm going to try to find a way to represent that as well, even if in an admittedly limited way. Because to me, that's where the rubber meets the road on 95% of my gigs."


Absolutely, regardless of the surroundings, I believe we usually hear the speaker cabinet blended, with the sound of the Double Bass. My 5/8 Mirecourt bass is pretty soft acoustically, so
what I'm usually hearing (or ocassionally not hearing) is the sound and sound guality that comes standing in close proximity to my amplifier. In a non FOH situation that's all you have
and unfortunately, sometimes EQ ing the bass for yourself, isn't the EQ you really need to send foward the audience. Regardless, that's the maximum amount if information I can process.
As and example, the St. Louis Convention Center has about a 4 second delay, but you just have to ignore it and focus on the primary sound coming from the amp. Just my take.

The only way I can see to replicate something similar to that is put yourself into the
field between the two speakers.
 
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I also believe the sum is greater than the parts. The interaction of the amp and bass becoming one at a certain volume threshold, that is depending on your bass, is a very interesting audio phenomenon. There is a certain volume that this magic happens. And the variables are endless. There is the electrical side. Which includes pickup, amp , cab , outboard gear or preamps. Then there is the physical/ environmental side that includes stage construction, walls are glass,drapes, wood? Stage volume and/or monitors and room noise floor. Is your bass a carved, hybrid, all laminate. Or aluminum. I just feel very lucky to live in an era where I can play upright w/o FOH support and be heard in many rooms. I have a great respect for the many that came before some of us/me.
 
While I’ll agree that there are to many variations and interactions that come into play in live situations to account for, if we just recorded the Noble or Sarno BB directly into the board all you get is a totally isolated studio that doesn’t really resemble what the device sounds like live. Understand that when we do these traveling demos we don’t typically have the device for more than a few weeks and we aren’t compensated for our time, so we’re doing it on the fly.
 
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I also believe the sum is greater than the parts. The interaction of the amp and bass becoming one at a certain volume threshold, that is depending on your bass, is a very interesting audio phenomenon. There is a certain volume that this magic happens. And the variables are endless......... I just feel very lucky to live in an era where I can play upright w/o FOH support and be heard in many rooms. I have a great respect for the many that came before some of us/me.

Sometimes it is magic, sometimes it’s not, but if I thing about all those interactions and variables I freeze up and can’t play.:cool:
 
I deal with fairly loud environments quite a bit. If there are drums I’m usually using my Aluminum. It’s such a quiet bass that I can get it up way before feedback. So I’m just spinning/twisting knobs till I’m good and then I’m done. I totally agree with the isolated tracks. I myself do not find them to be of much use. I know they take a lot of work to record. And I do appreciate the effort the players make. But the only way to find out if it’s gonna work for me is to use it in the environment it’s intended for.
 
While I’ll agree that there are to many variations and interactions that come into play in live situations to account for, if we just recorded the Noble or Sarno BB directly into the board all you get is a totally isolated studio that doesn’t really resemble what the device sounds like live.

Totally agree. In fact, I'm coming to the conclusion that for DB players, the question isn't really, "Does this amplification chain sound good?", but rather, "does this amplification chain sound good when blended with the natural acoustic sound of my bass?" Because in the end, who ever plays in any live situation where only the amp signal is heard? A case could be made for large and/or outdoor venues with FOH, but beyond that, it's all really about how the blended sound comes across.

While not conclusive by any means, I recorded five examples for the upcoming video review that bear this out to my ears:
1) Acoustic sound (panned hard left)/Noble direct (panned hard right)
2) Acoustic sound/Noble direct blended dead center
3) As above, but mixed in with drums

Then later, two examples of me playing between the two monitor speakers running the Noble signal with the mic about 10' away and the amplified signal 4dB louder than the acoustic signal. This is about the best I could do to approximate the normal "gig effect" of playing amplified. The first track like this was bass only, and the second was with drums. From what I can tell, the amplified signal alone sounds a bit zingy and hyped, and not what most people would call "natural". When blended with the acoustic sound, it sounds much more natural but arguably a tad steroidal. But when mixed in with the drums, it just sounds like a great bass sound that I would be happy to hear sitting in the mix right where it does. Looking forward to putting the video together and seeing what others think.
 
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Well actually Chris, I play where only my amp is heard quite a bit. Believe me, I’m not bragging. Quite often I wish they would just ask me to just play electric. Probably 80% of my gigs are that way. And yes they are on my Aluminum. And yes I do know it’s not the norm. But, that’s what I get hired to do. So that’s why I use the products I’ve chosen.
 
And as to the bigger existential bassist question of "how I sound on stage versus how I sound from distance __X out in the audience", there are always a ton of variables involved and it is likely impossible to empirically "prove" any theory for all variable situations. But having said that, as a general rule I would tend to say that both acoustic and amplified sounds tend to become softer and less defined over distance and space. For this reason, a sound that is very, very defined up close may sound more pleasing to the audience than a sound that sounds full and lush and fat up close.

I don't have any concrete answers on this front, but I think this is a big part of the reason I am drawn to the setup and playing style that are my natural go-to these days. They might sound a bit tight from 1-2' away, but I believe that they travel better over space, where clarity dissipates with distance.
 
Totally agree. In fact, I'm coming to the conclusion that for DB players, the question isn't really, "Does this amplification chain sound good?", but rather, "does this amplification chain sound good when blended with the natural acoustic sound of my bass?" Because in the end, who ever plays in any live situation where only the amp signal is heard? A case could be made for large and/or outdoor venues with FOH, but beyond that, it's all really about how the blended sound comes across.

My amp level for bowed string bass in concert band was significantly louder than the acoustic sound of my string bass. I would say the bass was still part of the sound, but not the majority of it. In big band, the acoustic sound of my bass was inconsequential. It was 99.99999% amp and PA. For context, the last bass I played was a 7/8 Lakeburg Baer and it was an absolute cannon of a bass, but in a concert band you could barely hear it.

I rarely used string bass in jazz combo as the group traveled together, needed to be in and out really fast, and I didn't want to deal with the extra bulk. I did sometimes us an NS Design electric upright.

Being as I played with an amp all the time I embraced it. Solo practice was acoustic, but all work with large ensembles involved an amp.

When I listen to videos of great bass players demonstrating pizz, I am often stunned by how bright and percussive their notes are. I believe this is due to the level of force they are using to try and get plenty of acoustic volume.

I don't embrace this philosophy. I think a purely acoustic string bass is practically useless in most jazz ensembles. If I am going to use the amp, I will let the amp do the work instead of tearing my hands up. I don't like such a bright, obnoxious attack anyway. Instead I will use what I consider the optimum amount of pull on the string to produce the attack and tone I prefer, instead of worrying about how loud acoustically I can get my bass.

Something to consider, when you have two sound sources that are in different locations, your going to get cancellation and phasing that degrades the quality of the sound. Another word for this phasing is comb filtering. The two sound sources of course are your amp and bass. There is no way to integrate the sound fronts to eliminate the problem unless you put the amp in front of the bass and delay the sound back. Then, this only corrects the problem on the axis between the bass and speaker. Off axis the problem still exists.

The phasing problem is most prominent when the two signals come together at equal strength, so one way to minimize the phase problem is for one of the sound sources to be dominant. Basically this means you should use your bass acoustically without an amp as long as it will carry the room. Then when you need the amp, it should be significantly louder than the bass. This assumes you have a quality setup that can approximate "my bass only louder."

Something to keep in mind is the relative size of the wavelengths we are talking about. Since low frequencies how really long wavelengths, providing your speaker is relatively close you won't have phasing problems in the low end. But you will get unevenness in your tone across the low mids if the bass and amp are at about the same volume. See attached "frequency wavelength chart."

My observation is people will turn up the amp just a little to fill out the low end, but it doesn't really sound like the bass IMHO. If I need to keep the volume relatively low but my bass is not enough, my personal approach is to play a little bit softer so I can turn the amp up a bit. For context, I use a setup that allows me to play pretty loud without incurring feedback problems. If your setup does not allow for this, you have to keep the volume of the amp low.

Okay so I am sure some of you have written me off as a complete heretic by now. At least consider the theoretical underpinnings of my approach, give it try, and ask someone you trust which sounds better. I have had people try it, sound way better, and then revert back to the old way because it seemed too foreign to them.

A lot of the greats are really committed to the idea of carrying the room with as much acoustic volume as possible, so as as always YMMV.
 

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I would totally agree with that Chris. There are many times I have thought “This sounds great!” . Only to have to re eq after I got up to volume in a mix. You are always mixing for the room/ Stage and not your personal (lol) stage space.

There's a huge amount of interaction between an acoustic bass and the amp. As the amp is turned up, my expectation is that progressive EQ inputs will be required to control problems that develop like feedback and string pump. At low volume you may not need any corrective EQ. At high volume you may need extreme cuts at multiple frequencies.

For the most part I use narrow band EQ to treat problems. If a single frequency wants to feedback I will apply a fairly deep cut. If a range frequencies want to feedback, then I'll use a wider band EQ but the cut will not be as deep. I think it's useful to have an amp with an EQ that work well to get a decent string bass sound, and then have a second utility EQ like an Empress ParaEQ that is better suited for dealing with problems.
 
ive never used the noble, but i do frequently use an all tube amp (50 watts) and love it for upright bass. i do plug into some sort of hpf first (i have several to choose from) because my amp is very old school and just has volume , bass and treble on it. so if the over all question is do upright basses and tubes go together , ill say the answer is yes! i like tubes so much that when using a class D head i will sometimes use an overdrive pedal to give a slight tube feel to it... not overdrive per se, just a little something to cover up the sins, if you can understand. kind of like tube emulation i guess, but not something that cuts out all the mids. you need a fairly transparent one with very low gain. makes it feel like its easier to play in my opinion. all the bass tones we hear from all the classic recordings we love are all tube tone because that's all that existed!
 
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Provided your bass produces a healthy amount of sound, then I see some merit in this approach, since turning up the amplifier past what I call the “break over point” (where you no longer hear the bass at all) in conjunction with a piezo pickup produces a very different timbre. As an example, the Realist can sound nice at low to medium volume levels, but it’s honky tonk piezo, when you hit the it’s break-over point. From playing and listening to many different piezo pickups, my conclusion is that they all have break over points. The Underwood, BP-100, Planet Waves, Upton Revolution Solo and Full Circle included. Since impedance loading gives you better tone quality at the outset, it helps keep the timbre pleasing as you get louder, phase correction can also improve the tone quality. Playing a 7/8 size bass vs my 5/8 Mirecourt creates a very different set of parameters. Generally speaking I'm always playing in a situation, where I hear the amp
more than I hear the bass, so I want the sound coming out of the amp to be pleasant and have some real definiton. That's what I go for every time. While I realize this isn't always the best tack for everyone else, it's what makes me comfortable and the band as well. Since I've gone to using powered MAS 1/8 speakers I can get that sound in most all of venues where I perform. In my particular situation if I know it's going to be louder than the Mirecourt can handle I take my fretless Lakland 55-94 or my EUB. At those volume levels IME it just makes more sense.
 
ive never used the noble, but i do frequently use an all tube amp (50 watts) and love it for upright bass. i do plug into some sort of hpf first (i have several to choose from) because my amp is very old school and just has volume , bass and treble on it. so if the over all question is do upright basses and tubes go together , ill say the answer is yes! i like tubes so much that when using a class D head i will sometimes use an overdrive pedal to give a slight tube feel to it... not overdrive per se, just a little something to cover up the sins, if you can understand. kind of like tube emulation i guess, but not something that cuts out all the mids. you need a fairly transparent one with very low gain. makes it feel like its easier to play in my opinion. all the bass tones we hear from all the classic recordings we love are all tube tone because that's all that existed!

Tubes are great, I played a B-15N(C) all through college and on my first gigs in Michigan City, Indiana and St. Louis. I think the Sarno BB works remarkably well into a Class D head, it just beef's up the tone quality, and definiton. I'm sure the Noble and Sarno Octal V8 do as well.

It just kind of depends on how many pieces of gear you're willing to add to your kit, when you already have a really nice Class D rig.
 
I have actually started looking into EUB’s Ric. Boy oh boy.....
That’s another world. You really have to look at it as different instrument than upright or electric.

They have gotten significantly better over time. My Clevenger Keyhole in the right situations, with the right pre amp can sound just fine. Fortunately for me, I had the luither
copy the kneck and fingerboard of my Mirecourt 5/8 Double Bass, so it's a dead match on the Clevenger. This makes a huge difference. IMHO. You are definitely correct, EUB's
are a totally different thing vs DB or EB. Once I can afford to the neck get my Kolstine Travel Bass replaced. I'm likely to sell the Clevenger.
 
I have actually started looking into EUB’s Ric. Boy oh boy.....
That’s another world. You really have to look at it as different instrument than upright or electric.
My experience is that they're not so different - I have an Eminence EUB, scale and setup are pretty similar, I don't find it hard at all to go back and forth between the 2. I use the EUB alot with loud gigs with a NewGrass band and I can dial in a really decent sound. I used to have it strung the same as my DB but now using Perpetuals on the DB, and don't want to spring for another $200+ for the EUB.