Normal kids=ADHD?

[jkritchey]

You're right, in fact I never heard of it at all in the 70's when I was in high school. I certainly remember some of the other students who may have had it though. Unable to focus, or sit still, or complete any meaningful school work. They were told to sit still, shut up and learn. Some overcame it and passed, others didn't and dropped out, or barely squeaked by. (Unless they played football or basketball...) There were also a group of semi violent thugs who seemed incapable of class work and took their frustrations out on others through physical release.

I'm sure there are kids who would do better with no / less medication, but I'm also glad some sufferers have a chance to overcome their problems through medication, and aren't just farmed out to the Vo Tech or Agricultural tracks because they can't focus on college track material.

I just can't look at that period as the good old days.

 

[Barkless Dog]

I just can't look at that period as the good old days.

We were allowed to smoke in our courtyard at school in the 70's and we had an ambulance come at least once a month for someone OD'ing or freaking out on acid/PCP during the school day.

 

[hbarcat]

Let's face facts, here. Everyone in the world has ADD.

Humans aren't evolved to sit still for hours at a time concentrating on one thing. However, doing so is necessary to the functioning of modern civilization, and that means that parents and teachers are required to teach children how to focus and concentrate on learning so that they can grow up to be responsible, self disciplined adults.

Naturally, some children are a little better at concentrating than others and they require a bit more effort to achieve the same results, but the vast majority of children fall under the normal curve and can learn to be self disciplined with nothing more than proper parenting and teaching. There are a very small number of children who have developmental problems that are physiological in nature and do need special help, both medical and psychological, and they may also need medication.

What has happened in recent decades is parenting and teaching standards have significantly dropped so that the typical child is now allowed to succeed or fail, with either result being acceptable and with little direction given or attempt at self discipline. Add to that the proliferation of mindless video games and increase in the amount of hours watching the drivel on television, plus the increase in the number of kids who live in a home with only one parent and you can see that the only result of this that a reasonable person should expect is an epidemic of kids who can't concentrate, focus or pay attention.

Just like we have an epidemic of obesity and we fix that by handing out pills to lower blood pressure, so we have an epidemic of children who have no self discipline and we get them hooked on pills to get them to sit still.

 

[higgi]

Every time I come to this thread, I see an advertisement for ADHD.

Link Removed

They are good at marketing! How come we don't see adds for multiple personality disorder drugs(lithium?), or pace makers? How come nobody's marketing for heavy flow period control devices on here? no money in that?

 

[Ben B]

Let's face facts, here. Everyone in the world has ADD.Just like we have an epidemic of obesity and we fix that by handing out pills to lower blood pressure, so we have an epidemic of children who have no self discipline and we get them hooked on pills to get them to sit still.

Um, no. First, no reputable doctor would prescribe ADHD medication to someone just because they, in your words, have no self discipline.

If a reputable GP suspected someone had ADHD, they would refer that person to a psychiatrist who run them through a several tests (blood tests, EEGs, possibly psychological counseling, etc.) to make sure they really had ADHD, not some other condition. If anyone has any information to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. And undocumented stories that you heard from a friend of a friend's second cousin's brother-in-law don't count. I only want to hear about YOUR actual experience.

Secondly, even if you had a kid with, as you say, "no self discipline" and you gave him Ritalin, he would not sit still. He would become more energetic if he didn't really have ADHD. Many people have this misconception that Ritalin and other related ADHD medication are tranquilizers or sedatives used to turn kids into "zombies". Not true. Read my post on page 4 and a few following responses if you are interested.

Ben

 

[higgi]

sometimes coffee makes me sleepy, do I have ADHD?

Nicotine always makes me relax, another upper that sedates?

 

[middy]

Let's face facts, here. Everyone in the world has ADD.

Humans aren't evolved to sit still for hours at a time concentrating on one thing. However, doing so is necessary to the functioning of modern civilization, and that means that parents and teachers are required to teach children how to focus and concentrate on learning so that they can grow up to be responsible, self disciplined adults.

Naturally, some children are a little better at concentrating than others and they require a bit more effort to achieve the same results, but the vast majority of children fall under the normal curve and can learn to be self disciplined with nothing more than proper parenting and teaching. There are a very small number of children who have developmental problems that are physiological in nature and do need special help, both medical and psychological, and they may also need medication.

What has happened in recent decades is parenting and teaching standards have significantly dropped so that the typical child is now allowed to succeed or fail, with either result being acceptable and with little direction given or attempt at self discipline. Add to that the proliferation of mindless video games and increase in the amount of hours watching the drivel on television, plus the increase in the number of kids who live in a home with only one parent and you can see that the only result of this that a reasonable person should expect is an epidemic of kids who can't concentrate, focus or pay attention.

Just like we have an epidemic of obesity and we fix that by handing out pills to lower blood pressure, so we have an epidemic of children who have no self discipline and we get them hooked on pills to get them to sit still.

Do you even have kids?

 

[Jared Lash]

Um, no. First, no reputable doctor would prescribe ADHD medication to someone just because they, in your words, have no self discipline.

Secondly, even if you had a kid with, as you say, "no self discipline" and you gave him Ritalin, he would not sit still. He would become more energetic if he didn't really have ADHD. Many people have this misconception that Ritalin and other related ADHD medication are tranquilizers or sedatives used to turn kids into "zombies". Not true. Read my post on page 4 and a few following responses if you are interested.

+1

I read your previous post and agreed with it as well as this last post. Ritalin is a stimulant. A tell-tale sign of a child misdiagnosed with ADHD is that the medication would make them MORE hyper, not less.

Ritalin appears to help in ADHD individuals because it is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, similar to the action of new era antidepressants (SRRIs) except with dopamine rather than seratonin, allowing dopamine to remain active at the synapses for longer than normal.

But in a normal person the effect would be similar to any other stimulant, likely close to that of methamphetamine, which is why it is sometimes abused by people without a prescription or ADHD.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Let's face facts, here. Everyone in the world has ADD.

Humans aren't evolved to sit still for hours at a time concentrating on one thing. However, doing so is necessary to the functioning of modern civilization, and that means that parents and teachers are required to teach children how to focus and concentrate on learning so that they can grow up to be responsible, self disciplined adults.

Naturally, some children are a little better at concentrating than others and they require a bit more effort to achieve the same results, but the vast majority of children fall under the normal curve and can learn to be self disciplined with nothing more than proper parenting and teaching. There are a very small number of children who have developmental problems that are physiological in nature and do need special help, both medical and psychological, and they may also need medication.

What has happened in recent decades is parenting and teaching standards have significantly dropped so that the typical child is now allowed to succeed or fail, with either result being acceptable and with little direction given or attempt at self discipline. Add to that the proliferation of mindless video games and increase in the amount of hours watching the drivel on television, plus the increase in the number of kids who live in a home with only one parent and you can see that the only result of this that a reasonable person should expect is an epidemic of kids who can't concentrate, focus or pay attention.

Just like we have an epidemic of obesity and we fix that by handing out pills to lower blood pressure, so we have an epidemic of children who have no self discipline and we get them hooked on pills to get them to sit still.

I take it you know very little about ADD/ADHD. If a person without ADD/ADHD take an ADHD medication such as ritalin they will become more hyper. That is one of the things that a good doctor should be looking for when starting someone on medication for ADHD. The only person I know well who has ADHD was very closely monitored for signs of increased hyperactivity for a couple of months following the start of his medication.

Everyone in the world does not have ADD or ADHD. In people with ADHD the size and structure of many brain areas differs, especially in the frontal area. This is linked to a deficiency of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine which are involved with arousal and alertness. Low serotonin is linked to impulsivity and problematic behavior. Brain activity in the affected areas is lower than in "normal" people. For ADD the problems are limited to the parietal lobe. This has been discovered by researchers using positron emission tomography to image people's brains.

Secondly, even if you had a kid with, as you say, "no self discipline" and you gave him Ritalin, he would not sit still. He would become more energetic if he didn't really have ADHD. Many people have this misconception that Ritalin and other related ADHD medication are tranquilizers or sedatives used to turn kids into "zombies". Not true. Read my post on page 4 and a few following responses if you are interested.

Ben

A lot of people seem to think that ritalin (methylphenidate) is a depressant. It is actually a stimulant. Aside from ADHD, methylphenidate is used to treat the daytime drowsiness symptoms of people with narcolepsy and chronic fatigue syndrome.

 

[jkritchey]

What has happened in recent decades is parenting and teaching standards have significantly dropped so that the typical child is now allowed to succeed or fail, with either result being acceptable and with little direction given or attempt at self discipline.

Sorry, but I believe this is WAY OFF the mark. I'm sure you could find places where this is true, but I assure you it's not the norm. My experience is that the high schools and colleges I'm directly involved with are hyper competitive, with a level of parenting that didn't exist in the 60's and 70's.

I'm not saying that's always good, but I think it's dead wrong to say the standard of parenting has universally dropped, along with teacher standards. If that's the case where you live, I encourage you to move for the sake of your kids (assuming you have any).

 

[Barkless Dog]

but I think it's dead wrong to say the standard of parenting has universally dropped,

If anything it's the opposite now. all these parents I know are helicopter parents, who involve themselves of every aspect of their kids lives. They expect it of parents of elementary school kids. every kid is special and must be a star in someway. Average is a bad thing now. I was reading an article how some parents were going to job interviews with their kids and trying to negotiate terms of their employment/pay & benefits.

Long gone are the days when my parents had no involvement in my school and many times had no idea where I was.

 

[hbarcat]

If anything it's the opposite now. all these parents I know are helicopter parents, who involve themselves of every aspect of their kids lives. They expect it of parents of elementary school kids. every kid is special and must be a star in someway. Average is a bad thing now. I was reading an article how some parents were going to job interviews with their kids and trying to negotiate terms of their employment/pay & benefits. Long gone are the days when my parents had no involvement in my school and many times had no idea where I was.

Exactly. That's just what I'm talking about. This is the other half of bad parenting and it does not teach self discipline any more than completely neglecting your kids does. I see parents doing their kids activities for them everywhere I go (Chicago suburbs) while their kids stand around fidgeting and complaining.

To address the specific example earlier of a child who is trying to do schoolwork and cannot focus, this happened to me regularly when I was younger and it happened to nearly all my friends. We were forced to do our schoolwork and get it done in a timely manner or else serious consequences resulted and there were no exceptions. That was in the late 70's and early 80's. Today kid's are given flexibility in turning in their homework, if they even have any at all. My daughter has no homework in her school; they did away with that because too many students weren't turning it in and it was easier for the teachers and parents to just say screw the whole thing and not give any homework. The work they do in the classroom is noticeably easier and less comprehensive than from a few decades ago. I've been keeping track of the work that my daughter has been required to do throughout grade school and now as a high school freshman and I'm appalled by just how little they expect of the kids and how willing teachers and parents are to accept so little. I even have to crack open my own books and teach her things that are missing from nearly all her classes (especially math and science) that were routinely taught when I was her age.

I see piles of these "every kid is special and must be a star in someway" children nearly every day of the week in school, little league sports, martial arts and music lessons, as well as just hanging around the neighborhood. All but a few of them are significantly less capable of thinking and acting for themselves than the children of a few decades ago because they simply don't have enough outside incentive to use their brains.

 

[hbarcat]

My experience is that the high schools and colleges I'm directly involved with are hyper competitive, with a level of parenting that didn't exist in the 60's and 70's.

I'm not saying that's always good, but I think it's dead wrong to say the standard of parenting has universally dropped, along with teacher standards.

It certainly is the case where I live. Since we moved here about 12 years ago, we've lived in three different cities/towns and our daughter has been to 5 different schools and they're all similar.

I really hope that it is just a regional thing and there are higher standards elsewhere than what is typical here. I would defy anyone to describe any public school within 100 miles of my house as "competitive". The best adjective I would use to universally describe the schools (and most of the parents) is "ambivalent".

 

[jkritchey]

I'm sorry to hear that. I can't even begin to type out how positively I feel about our High School. Our school district in general is fabulous, but I think our specific High School is a real jewel. I volunteer there for an hour in the mornings.

If there's a teacher there not pulling there weight, they will be called out. If there are students that are overly disruptive, it will not be tolerated. My daughter says she knows some kids who are medicated but not many. One guy who I know well, having spent 10 years involved with soccer with him, had some ADD / ADHD like symptoms that were dramatically improved by medication. We might have lost him with out it (seriously). The whole school, and administration was unbelievably supportive of him while he struggled (he was extremely popular). He moved from 4 D's to Honor roll his last semester after finding the right combination of medications.

I'm sorry things haven't gone as well for you, but I think it's important to acknowledge some of the good things that have been done for some kids, by good parents, and good schools.

 

[hbarcat]

I think there is a misunderstanding from some who've read one of my previous posts that I'm making the case that the only real difference between kids who are self disciplined and those who are not is environmental (ie. their parents and teachers didn't do their jobs). I'm not saying that at all. I understand perfectly well that some people have a harder time at paying attention and concentrating than others do, and I understand perfectly well that there is a strong genetic factor involved, and that brain function in these kids is measurably different. Specifically, I understand that a key factor in diagnosing ADHD is dopamine levels and it seems that a lack of ability to optimally utilize this chemical in the brain is the "cause" of ADHD.

I stated: [[[Naturally, some children are a little better at concentrating than others and they require a bit more effort to achieve the same results, but the vast majority of children fall under the normal curve and can learn to be self disciplined with nothing more than proper parenting and teaching. There are a very small number of children who have developmental problems that are physiological in nature and do need special help, both medical and psychological, and they may also need medication.]]]

I'm simply making the point (and I fail to see why it's so controversial) that most (and I've never said all) of the kids who have been diagnosed with ADHD fall within the normal curve and are quantitatively, not qualitatively different from other "normal" kids, and that the children on the marginal edge of the curve are the ones who get screwed by the declined standards of behavior that is typical today, into being placed into this disfunctional classification, where they are unwisely targeted for innapropriate medication.


And I stand by my statement that standards and expectations for our childrens' behavior are much lower today than they were in past decades.

 

[hbarcat]

I'm sorry to hear that. I can't even begin to type out how positively I feel about our High School. Our school district in general is fabulous, but I think our specific High School is a real jewel. I volunteer there for an hour in the mornings.

If there's a teacher there not pulling there weight, they will be called out. If there are students that are overly disruptive, it will not be tolerated. My daughter says she knows some kids who are medicated but not many. One guy who I know well, having spent 10 years involved with soccer with him, had some ADD / ADHD like symptoms that were dramatically improved by medication. We might have lost him with out it (seriously). The whole school, and administration was unbelievably supportive of him while he struggled (he was extremely popular). He moved from 4 D's to Honor roll his last semester after finding the right combination of medications.

I'm sorry things haven't gone as well for you, but I think it's important to acknowledge some of the good things that have been done for some kids, by good parents, and good schools.

I'm genuinely heartened to hear that! Perhaps my pessimism from this area isn't universally warranted.

I'll keep my eyes and ears open to the possibility.

 

[jkritchey]

And I stand by my statement that standards and expectations for our childrens' behavior are much lower today than they were in past decades.

Me, my mom, and my mom in law disagree. Mom and Mom in law are stunned by how thoughtful and polite the kids are that they've met through my kids. Are there dopes? You bet, but to my experience the kids I see daily are far better behaved, more involved in activities and have far cleaner bloodstreams then the college bound kids I graduated with.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I'm simply making the point (and I fail to see why it's so controversial) that most (and I've never said all) of the kids who have been diagnosed with ADHD fall within the normal curve and are quantitatively, not qualitatively different from other "normal" kids, and that the children on the marginal edge of the curve are the ones who get screwed by the declined standards of behavior that is typical today, into being placed into this disfunctional classification, where they are unwisely targeted for innapropriate medication.

How do you figure that most people diagnosed with ADHD do not have it? Do you have some research that backs it up? I'm asking as I haven't seen anything indicating that the misdiagnosis rate is so high as to claim that most people diagnosed with ADHD do not have it. The misdiagnosis rate for the CAARS test my friend took is 13% for false-positive and 18% for false-negative based on clinical research and that is just one of the many tests he took before the doctor (a specialist) actually diagnosed him with ADHD. I would hope that doctors would be at least this responsible in making medical diagnoses. All the doctors I've had this far in my life have been very thorough in their work when I've had any unusual symptoms.

 

[HELLonWHEELS]

OK i have been diagnosed with ADHD and do take medication when needed and it makes a world of a difference. I couldn't ceoncentrate in class and not because I was talking to friends because my mind would just wonder so concentrically i missed many homework assignments and ended up failing a couple classes.


I didn't get meds untill I was in high school because thats really where it shows. Giving meds to young kids makes no sense at all and thats said from a kid on the meds.

 

[Nappa]

I had a teacher who unknown to her asked if i had EDHD.......