Normal kids=ADHD?

[MakiSupaStar]

If we are using them as excuses, why are people working on drugs and treatments to cure them. Clearly people don't want excuses, they want help. Are they over diagnosed? Probably. Does that make it any less of a real problem? No.

+1. Wow. I agree with Mark. I think what we need to work on here is how to accurately and properly diagnose ADHD and ADD. Teachers are trained observers, not doctors. It seems to me that there is the reality (it does exist and ritalin and like drugs do help) there is this grey area (some kids are are more hyper than others and some kids might have a mild case of it). I'm a teacher. I have students that have legit cases of ADHD. When they are off their meds they are climbing the walls. You can see this energy and just tearing them apart. They are unable to focus. It's really sad. They realize and often apologize for their behavior (Mr. Ham, I'm sorry, but you're probably gonna kick me out of class today). BUT I honestly beleive that there is a trend to over diagnose this disease (and I find it dubious that it's a trend that coincidently coincides with profits of the pharmaceutical companies).

Much of this can be managed with diet and parental supervision (unfortunately this does not exist in the neighborhood that I teach in). As a parent I would be very very very hesitant to medicate my child. I would rather work with him and teach him about physical self-control and discipline AND physical and mental disciplines (music, golf, writing, painting, surfing, swimming, etc).

 

[BartmanPDX]

Or we've just invented even more ways to excuse bad behavior. We can't blame little Timmy for being a turd! He's got ADHAutismObsessiveCompulsiveBiPolarAspergerDisorderSyndrome.

Don't even THINK of lumping autism in with ADHD. ADHD is a real, but often overdiagnosed condition most likely exacerbated by the crazy short-attention span modern life we live in. Bad or no parenting also can contribute to the overdiagnosis. I agree with much of what has been said here on ADHD from my experience as a teacher (I might add that school contracts with beverage companies making huge caffeinated sodas available right before class hasn't helped the more energetic kids focus in class any better).

Autism is a debilitating, life-long condition which is incurable by drugs. No amount of "great parenting" will ever make my daughter "normal." She turns seven this month, and still cannot answer simple questions, or draw a circle, though she can read thousands of words. In all likelihood, I will spend the rest of my life taking care of her. We're doing lots of therapy, as well as many other treatments, but the magnitude of her condition basically precludes any hope that she will lead anything resembling a normal life.

I'm embarrassed when my daughter has a meltdown in a public place, but I can't imagine how hard it is for her to be in her situation -- constantly being frustrated by her inability to communicate with the world.

And FWIW, I hate putting kids on meds, but my daughter is on three meds for her epilepsy, and as much as I hate them and hate giving them to her, it's a damn sight better than watching her seizing constantly and stopping breathing.

 

[disenchant]

The whole point of ADHD medication is to push the kid down to the point where he can be controlled. Kids on ritalin are like zombies. Sure they're quiet, sure they're sitting still. But after talking to so many kids who have been on it, they say they hate the feeling. I've also seen other treatments for hyperactive kids including making them wear vests with sand in them to weigh them down and make them tired faster.

The point of BAD discipline is also to push a kid down to the point where he can be controlled by use of threats. As soon as the threatening part (parent, teacher, etc) is absent, the child reverts. It freaks me out that society will look at a child sitting quietly in a chair and say "oh, you're being so good!" Why does good=quiet and no motion?

But good discipline shows a child how to control himself. It teaches them when to be wild, and when to be calm. I think there are places where children should be allowed to run free and those where they should be calm. Fancy restaurant...don't bring your kids if they're going to scream and run up and down the aisles. Playground, festivals just let 'em loose! Heck, sometimes I wanna just run around and scream!

But real ADD or ADHD symptoms in a classroom need to be handled with study technology, not discipline. Children are hard on themselves, and when they don't understand something they don't always know how to handle it. That should be up to adults.

 

[marcray]

Mmmmm... well, see I can follow and agree with the idea of being genetically predispositioned towards certain things. Behavior, personality, yes. Definitely. But alcoholism? No. Drug use? No. Sorry, my father is a full-blown alcoholic. He has a pint of Mad Dog tucked between his car seats, he sips the whiskey bottle all day long. He's a damned drunk. But my brother and I don't binge drink, we don't sip a flask all day long, we don't NEED a drink just to get through the day, we're not drunk before dinnertime. So I don't believe that everything can be linked to genetics or inheritance.

I DO, however, believe that a drunk father will influence his children to grow up to be drunks if those kids don't have a counterinfluence to show them to drink in moderation and enjoyment instead of dealing with stress. I've seen that plenty. I see far more examples of outside stimuli for poor behavior than I see inherited character flaws or medical conditions.

I truly believe that chemical dependency, whether alcohol soft or hard drugs, is something that grows from a character flaw or bad influences from childhood. Even crack babies can be weened and grow up normally if given the help they need.

addiction is a personality and behavioural characteristic... it can present itself in all sorts of ways. Addiction can also skip generations, as can asthma and any other physical problems. I understand your skepticism, it's natural. A lot of people don't even see these problems as a disease, just a down right foolish flaw. I feel like it has to be more than that just in the evidence of it's recurrence. I spent no time with my father, didn't even know him until I was an adult, yet we're exactly alike. He's a drinker, I'm not, but I have to fight everyday to not buy a little baggie. Flaws, we all got 'em.

 

[disenchant]

Don't even THINK of lumping autism in with ADHD. ADHD is a real, but often overdiagnosed condition most likely exacerbated by the crazy short-attention span modern life we live in. Bad or no parenting also can contribute to the overdiagnosis. I agree with much of what has been said here on ADHD from my experience as a teacher (I might add that school contracts with beverage companies making huge caffeinated sodas available right before class hasn't helped the more energetic kids focus in class any better).

Autism is a debilitating, life-long condition which is incurable by drugs. No amount of "great parenting" will ever make my daughter "normal." She turns seven this month, and still cannot answer simple questions, or draw a circle, though she can read thousands of words. In all likelihood, I will spend the rest of my life taking care of her. We're doing lots of therapy, as well as many other treatments, but the magnitude of her condition basically precludes any hope that she will lead anything resembling a normal life.

I'm embarrassed when my daughter has a meltdown in a public place, but I can't imagine how hard it is for her to be in her situation -- constantly being frustrated by her inability to communicate with the world.

And FWIW, I hate putting kids on meds, but my daughter is on three meds for her epilepsy, and as much as I hate them and hate giving them to her, it's a damn sight better than watching her seizing constantly and stopping breathing.

Yes, autism and ADHD are two totally different things! One should not confuse the two.

I've been learning a lot about candida lately and it's connection to autism. Candida can also cause ADHD symptoms as well.

"Some of the behavior problems which have been linked to an overgrowth of candida albicans include: confusion, hyperactivity, short attention span, lethargy, irritability, and aggression. Health problems can include: headaches, stomachaches, constipation, gas pains, fatigue, and depression. These problems are often worse during damp and/or muggy days and in moldy places. Additionally, exposure to perfumes and insecticides can worsen the condition."

-Stephen M. Edelson, Ph.D.
Center for the Study of Autism, Salem, Oregon

 

[Bryan316]

I KNEW we could blame Canada for everything!


Oh... Candida... ahh. Gotcha.





Autism is a frightening thing to learn about. Truly frightening. And entirely different than ADHD, I'll certainly agree with that. Bartman, you're a brave and honorable man to be dealing with a child with this. Major props to ya. It's a fight. A constant fight.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Mmmmm... well, see I can follow and agree with the idea of being genetically predispositioned towards certain things. Behavior, personality, yes. Definitely. But alcoholism? No. Drug use? No. Sorry, my father is a full-blown alcoholic. He has a pint of Mad Dog tucked between his car seats, he sips the whiskey bottle all day long. He's a damned drunk. But my brother and I don't binge drink, we don't sip a flask all day long, we don't NEED a drink just to get through the day, we're not drunk before dinnertime. So I don't believe that everything can be linked to genetics or inheritance.

Yeah, but your one data point doesn't really mean anything. Research has shown that there seems to be a hereditary vulnerability to alcoholism. Human studies have found that it has something to do with the dopamine D2 receptor (low levels of this receptor correlate with a vulnerability to alcoholism) and studies on rats using gene therapy to increase their levels of the dopamine D2 receptor have been shown to reduce alcohol consumption in rats.

 

[karrot-x]

 

[Barkless Dog]

I read a thing here in Chicago that a medical group developed a video game that the kid plays using brain waves to guide a cars or something on a TV screen. They saw after several weeks of therapy the brain reprograms the brain where ADHD has shown in brain scans to have misfiring neurons or something. They said it had a 60% success rate in both kids & adults.

I have not heard much about it since then though.

 

[Jared Lash]

Other than a brief stint as a substitute, I haven't spent much time around groups of young children, so I can't speak intelligently on the prevalence or overdiagnosis of ADD or ADHD in elementary school aged kids. I'm sure it's a much more difficult thing to determine accurately due to the nature of children of that age.

But I did spend the last seven years teaching high school and my experience is that not only is ADD (and especially ADHD) real, but it is very easy to spot. And the approach of the parents seems to have little to no bearing on which kids had ADHD. I've seen practically nonexistant parents, overbearing parents, ones who didn't seem to punish their kids for anything and ones who were reported for abuse for beating their kids. And I saw parents who I thought were doing everything right. All with ADHD kids.

Since my degree is in Neurochemistry, I'd taken quite an interest in the scientific causes of learning disabilities once I started teaching. Perhaps the greatest evidence for ADHD is that it is clearly heritable. Eliminating the influence of enviornmental causes is done as usual by doing studies on adopted children. And these have always lent creedence to the idea that ADHD is genetic, at least judging by the only known markers of ADHD.

Can these kids learn to control themselves? Sure. It's just harder, and may require medication. There is a genetic component to alcholism too. But that doesn't doom children of alcoholics to that fate. There is a genetic component to obesity as well. Children born to two obese parents can be healthy, but they are going to have to work harder at it than someone whose genes don't predispose them to gaining weight easier.

Everyone has their own problems and limitations. The key is to understand what they are and to deal with them rather than using them as a crutch.

 

[louieeadg]

Other than a brief stint as a substitute, I haven't spent much time around groups of young children, so I can't speak intelligently on the prevalence or overdiagnosis of ADD or ADHD in elementary school aged kids. I'm sure it's a much more difficult thing to determine accurately due to the nature of children of that age.

But I did spend the last seven years teaching high school and my experience is that not only is ADD (and especially ADHD) real, but it is very easy to spot. And the approach of the parents seems to have little to no bearing on which kids had ADHD. I've seen practically nonexistant parents, overbearing parents, ones who didn't seem to punish their kids for anything and ones who were reported for abuse for beating their kids. And I saw parents who I thought were doing everything right. All with ADHD kids.

Since my degree is in Neurochemistry, I'd taken quite an interest in the scientific causes of learning disabilities once I started teaching. Perhaps the greatest evidence for ADHD is that it is clearly heritable. Eliminating the influence of enviornmental causes is done as usual by doing studies on adopted children. And these have always lent creedence to the idea that ADHD is genetic, at least judging by the only known markers of ADHD.

Can these kids learn to control themselves? Sure. It's just harder, and may require medication. There is a genetic component to alcholism too. But that doesn't doom children of alcoholics to that fate. There is a genetic component to obesity as well. Children born to two obese parents can be healthy, but they are going to have to work harder at it than someone whose genes don't predispose them to gaining weight easier.

Everyone has their own problems and limitations. The key is to understand what they are and to deal with them rather than using them as a crutch.

Who wants to ride bikes?

 

[Bryan316]

I HAD TO!!!

 

[louieeadg]

awesome.

 

[jkritchey]

Other than a brief stint as a substitute, I haven't spent much time around groups of young children, so I can't speak intelligently on the prevalence or overdiagnosis of ADD or ADHD in elementary school aged kids. I'm sure it's a much more difficult thing to determine accurately due to the nature of children of that age.

But I did spend the last seven years teaching high school and my experience is that not only is ADD (and especially ADHD) real, but it is very easy to spot. And the approach of the parents seems to have little to no bearing on which kids had ADHD. I've seen practically nonexistant parents, overbearing parents, ones who didn't seem to punish their kids for anything and ones who were reported for abuse for beating their kids. And I saw parents who I thought were doing everything right. All with ADHD kids.

Since my degree is in Neurochemistry, I'd taken quite an interest in the scientific causes of learning disabilities once I started teaching. Perhaps the greatest evidence for ADHD is that it is clearly heritable. Eliminating the influence of enviornmental causes is done as usual by doing studies on adopted children. And these have always lent creedence to the idea that ADHD is genetic, at least judging by the only known markers of ADHD.

Can these kids learn to control themselves? Sure. It's just harder, and may require medication. There is a genetic component to alcholism too. But that doesn't doom children of alcoholics to that fate. There is a genetic component to obesity as well. Children born to two obese parents can be healthy, but they are going to have to work harder at it than someone whose genes don't predispose them to gaining weight easier.

Everyone has their own problems and limitations. The key is to understand what they are and to deal with them rather than using them as a crutch.

What's this? The voice of reason and experience? Push off! We're passing judgment in this thread based on sweeping generalizations! We have no time for Scientific endeavor!

(Nice Post. Thanks for your perspective)

 

[BartmanPDX]

Just to lighten up the conversation, I remembered this story from the Onion in 2005:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The new rollout of AD-HDTV! All the kids can't stop watching it!

 

[Barkless Dog]

Video Games are the cure!
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

In the test, six Sony PlayStation games were used with 22 boys and girls between the ages of nine and thirteen who had ADHD. Half the group received traditional biofeedback training; the other half played the modified video games. After 40 one-hour sessions, both groups showed substantial improvements in everyday brain-wave patterns as well as in tests of measuring attention span, impulsiveness, and hyperactivity. Parents in both groups also reported that their children were doing better in school.

The difference between the two groups was motivation. “In the video-game group, there were fewer no-shows and no dropouts,” according to Pope. The parents were more satisfied with the results of the training, and the kids seemed to have more fun.

Since children are more motivated toward video-game biofeedback and may already be familiar with video games, they will not need one-on-one coaching to master the technique. As a result, the cost of the treatment should be reduced and maybe even permit “do-it-yourself” biofeedback. One North Carolina company markets their Play Attention system as a fun bike helmet and game-like video exercises that work on almost any computer. The helmet is lined with sensors that monitor the child’s brain waves, and the child actually controls the computer video exercises by mind alone. Parents should not expect regular video games to help their children. The wrong kinds of video games might actually hurt children with attention disorders.

 

[Lost Drummer]

thread hi-jack this thread is now about chainsaws.

Ready Go!

 

[Barkless Dog]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

People with these disorders experience "constant frustration," says Henry Owens, a Melbourne, Fla., clinical psychologist who recently began offering a patented video game system, which evolved from NASA technology, to some of his patients.

"If they just play video games on their own, they will zone out," he says. "When they play on this system, if they zone out, the video game doesn't respond any more," acting as an incentive to improve focus and concentration.

That comes through controlling brain-wave activity, which some researchers say is too slow or too fast in certain areas of the brain when patients have ADHD.

Video game play is a form of neuro-feedback, Owens says, which teaches patients to self-regulate brain-wave patterns to improve learning.

But some researchers remain cautious.

"It's still controversial," says Dr. Andrew Adesman, chief of developmental and behavioral pediatrics at Schneider Children's Hospital in New Hyde Park, N.Y.

He says studies have yet to show video game play with a neuro-feedback component has either a short-term or long-term benefit, despite parents' desire to explore other options in the wake of recent concerns about Ritalin and other stimulants used to treat ADHD.

FDA approved

In Florida, Owens is one of only five practitioners authorized by the company to offer its gaming system.

Lindsay Greco, a co-founder of CyberLearning, says the company has 54 providers Nationwide, identified by "licensure and their expertise in neuro-feedback."

She says the system has approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, and that by mid-2003 the company had acquired an exclusive license from NASA to take Langley Research Center's technology, enabling researchers to measure the brain waves of pilots during flight simulations, into the gaming arena.

The device works through a specially designed helmet, with built-in sensors that monitor a player's brain waves. Signals from the sensors are fed through a signal-processing unit and then to a video controller as a game is played.

"There are other systems with computer-based technologies where the bar goes up and down," Greco says. "But these are rudimentary. Our games empower you to change your own brain's physiology."

 

[higgi]

Thank you for all the replies. It is interesting to see how many people think the ADD ADHD thing is over diagnosed.

There are children with real problems, but I see friends and neighbors dope their children when I just thought the kid was just energetic.

I was a problem child myself, but I thank my parents for helping me out with discipline. I also lived on a farm and had lots of chores to wear me out. I think a lot of children need something to do besides sit around the house.

Dis mentioned vests full of sand to wear children out, sounds good. Maybe we should get them to mow the lawn, feed the cattle, and split wood also.

I am sure there is no single answer. For those of you that have to deal with it... I love you all for being a patient person!

 

[txbasschik]

Were the Nintendo generation raised by hippies. We've got a million points of stimulation and advertisements coming in every direction. Mixed messages of sex and violence, which is the good one again? Millions of frequencies, radio waves, satellite waves pulsing through the very fabric of our developing brains since day one. We'll eat hormonally injected and processed foods day in and day out. What I don't understand is how someone can not have ADHD.

Ayup. Sad, but true. I think mine was the last generation *not* to be bombarded with media and distraction. The last one *not* to be fed a diet of chemical compounds. (We had 'em, but not as many as there are now.) The last generation that, if they didn't want to go out and play, their parents *made* them. We had a lot more chores, too, and fewer "extracurricular activities".

ADD/ADHD was around back then, certainly. I dated a boy in high school who'd been on ritalin for most of elementary school and jr hi. But there were far, far fewer kids diagnosed with it.

Cherie