Normal kids=ADHD?

[DrSmaggs]

I'm going to disagree with, well, just about everyone.

Just because there are a lot of brats out there and parents who lack child rearing skills doesn't mean ADHD doesn't exist. It may be over-diagnosed. I'm not sure.

But ADHD is a real medical condition. It is some kind of depression of certain areas in the brain. And it is treatable with the proper medication. Notice I say treatable, not curable.

Many people believe this medicine is a depressant used to make kids into zombies, so, they quit acting hyper. Wrong. It's the opposite. The drugs are a stimulant used to "wake-up" the depressed area of the brain.

Think about it... you give a stimulant to a kid who's a brat, they will be MORE hyper and probably act worse. If you give a stimulant to a kid and it calms him down, he's probably got ADHD.

As for some poster's statement about someone they know who had ADHD becoming a meth addict, I believe it. I suspect people with ADHD are more likely to get hooked on meth because it calms them down--well, at first--until they start taking too much. Then the trouble starts.

I don't believe there are many causes of ADHD. From things I've read by legitimate sources, it is likely a genetic condition, not environmental.

Okay, bring on the flaming.

ben

I'm certainly not a doctor... I go by observation. I see good points, so no flames from me.

I personally believe that things like ADD/ADHD can also result from the child in question not having enough creative outlet or might be thumbed down by the parent(s)... I also noticed that was the case with a younger kid I used to know.

Kids need positive discipline, meaning they should learn something and understand how to respect others... like the whole restaurant situation in a post or two above this one.

As I stated before, I really don't know jack about mental issues. These are my observations and opinions. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree.

Cheers!

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

I'm going to disagree with, well, just about everyone.

Just because there are a lot of brats out there and parents who lack child rearing skills doesn't mean ADHD doesn't exist. It may be over-diagnosed. I'm not sure.

But ADHD is a real medical condition. It is some kind of depression of certain areas in the brain. And it is treatable with the proper medication. Notice I say treatable, not curable.

I read about some studies using positron emission tomography and certain areas of the brain in a person with ADHD use less glucose than a "normal" person's brain. I believe it was done while the subjects were memorizing lists of words.

Many people believe this medicine is a depressant used to make kids into zombies, so, they quit acting hyper. Wrong. It's the opposite. The drugs are a stimulant used to "wake-up" the depressed area of the brain.

Think about it... you give a stimulant to a kid who's a brat, they will be MORE hyper and probably act worse. If you give a stimulant to a kid and it calms him down, he's probably got ADHD.

That's one of the things that my friend who was diagnosed with ADHD mentioned. Apparently to a person without ADHD the medication is a very strong stimulant. His doctor was looking for signs of this after he was put on the medication as it would be a sign of possible misdiagnosis.

As for some poster's statement about someone they know who had ADHD becoming a meth addict, I believe it. I suspect people with ADHD are more likely to get hooked on meth because it calms them down--well, at first--until they start taking too much. Then the trouble starts.

I don't believe there are many causes of ADHD. From things I've read by legitimate sources, it is likely a genetic condition, not environmental.

Okay, bring on the flaming.

ben

I've read that there are some things that can exacerbate the symptoms of ADHD, such as poor diet, watching a lot of TV and some other things I don't recall. I also recall reading that in studies there has been no success in treating ADHD with diet, regulated TV, or "improved" parenting. These things could reduce the symptoms but they couldn't eliminate them.

 

[marcray]

I'm going to disagree with, well, just about everyone.

Just because there are a lot of brats out there and parents who lack child rearing skills doesn't mean ADHD doesn't exist. It may be over-diagnosed. I'm not sure.

But ADHD is a real medical condition. It is some kind of depression of certain areas in the brain. And it is treatable with the proper medication. Notice I say treatable, not curable.

Many people believe this medicine is a depressant used to make kids into zombies, so, they quit acting hyper. Wrong. It's the opposite. The drugs are a stimulant used to "wake-up" the depressed area of the brain.

Think about it... you give a stimulant to a kid who's a brat, they will be MORE hyper and probably act worse. If you give a stimulant to a kid and it calms him down, he's probably got ADHD.

As for some poster's statement about someone they know who had ADHD becoming a meth addict, I believe it. I suspect people with ADHD are more likely to get hooked on meth because it calms them down--well, at first--until they start taking too much. Then the trouble starts.

I don't believe there are many causes of ADHD. From things I've read by legitimate sources, it is likely a genetic condition, not environmental.

Okay, bring on the flaming.

ben

no disagreement here... I do believe that it may very well be over-diagnosed, but dismissing it is equally ignorant. It's kinda like postpartum depression, unless you've felt the symptoms yourself or are clinically skilled enough to really understand the problem in a doctoral way, then putting it down to bratty behaviour and saying you'd spank it out of them is a little silly.

The amount of adults that need a tipple or a little puff puff to sleep at night would also point to the fact that there may well have been this same problem, or others, in past generations, it just wasn't talked about so much. And lets not mention the millions of guys that can't get it up past 30 for reasons they can't explain... stress, food, life in general, whatever it is, the armchair diagnosis is probably ill-advised.

 

[jkritchey]

How can people sitting at their keyboard diagnose other people's children and declare them to be undisciplined? I have no idea if ADHD is overdiagnosed or not, and it really doesn't matter.

It would matter if it was my kid. (it's not). Then I'd be thankful to have options, including what Dis mentions.

I sure wouldn't sit in judgment on what other people are going through with broad sweeping generalizations.

And I don't recall 30-40 years ago being some type of nirvana of self discipline and strong Parenting. 1967, 1968? The height of discipline & strong parenting? Really?

Back then if you might have been ADHD, you'd take your bad grades and discipline problems in HS and ship out to Viet Nam. Things were better then, eh?

 

[Stanley Design]

I strongly believe I have a form of ADD as an adult, I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to focus and concentrate on tasks, and as I work with large machines with fast sharp heavy moving parts, it only takes a split second to loose a finger/limb/life. I don't take drugs, even caffeine. But I manage to make it through it and do a good job. I'm on the fence with giving kids drugs to make them concentrate, I know some people couldn't force themselves like I try to, because it IS really hard, but at the same time, making anyone reliant on a substance is bad in my book.

 

[CBRStingray]

You're right. We stopped advancing medical and scientific research on medical and psychological 30 years and anything discovered / diagnosed since then couldn't possibly be a genuine medical problem that wasn't known about then. In fact, now I think about it, the world today is indentical to 30 years ago and there is no possible way in which the change in social pressures, expectations and stresses etc could account for increases in psychological issues in youth.

Lack of proper parenting and disciple is the single biggest cause of the increases in psychological issues in youth today, IMO

 

[disenchant]

From my observations and studies there are quite a few different causes for ADHD behavior.

First of all, function determines structure. Basically what that means is the chemicals being off in the brain and the ADHD signs are symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself. The problem comes first, the chemical imbalance comes second.

Yes, bad parenting can play a role in bad behavior, but it's not the entire reason. If you've ever been around a kid who truly has ADHD symptoms, there's something off in their eyes. They're not here. When they look at you, they're not looking at you. It's pretty creepy. Kids who need more discipline have a different look about them, it's like they KNOW what they're doing. They're the kind of kid that will stick their hand in the cookie jar while watching you with a grin on their face, waiting to see what you'll do.

I can suffer from really bad ADHD symptoms, my particular case is just a food allergy. But boy, when I eat eggs I'm waaaay off and I feel like someone is screaming in my head. I think there are more additives and preservatives and hormones in food nowadays, and I think that has cause increased food sensitivities in children and it can give ADHD symptoms. I've heard so many cases of ADHD being solved by food allergy testing, and also testing for Candida.

But the last cause is just improper study technique and supervision at school. I've talked to so many teachers who have degrees but no idea how to really teach. How to watch a child for symptoms and know exactly what is wrong. If a child starts jiggling a leg or falling asleep then they have a word they don't understand. If they are sitting slouched or are upset they need a picture of what they're studying. And sometimes things just go too fast and they need to slow down. It's not dumbing down the material or making up diseases. It's teaching kids HOW to learn, and then giving them the responsibility. When kids are confused in school, that is when they act up. And once the confusion has gone too far, they give up or can't concentrate at all.

I've taught ADHD kids no problem. They don't exhibit symptoms in my class ever. I use a combination of study technology, responsibility for one's own actions, clear rules and agreement from the students (one should always get agreement from the students) and I teach each kid the way they learn best. Some need examples, some need to be left alone, some need to break things down into small parts, some need bigger challenges.

ADHD

 

[Poop-Loops]

I grew up in the 70s & 80s....

They had a cure for ADD and ADHD back then, It was called "Parenting & Discipline".

Really? For me it was called "playing and being a kid".

One of the things that I hate about the US is that you need a car to get anywhere. When I lived in Poland, everything important was within walking distance.

Ever see Shaun of the Dead? Remember the first scenes where he walks from his house to the store and then back, all in the span of like a minute? It was like that.

Other things that were within walking distance were playgrounds and fields. That means we didn't need supervision to play, because literally the entire neighborhood could see us and there were tons of kids out. What's there to do in the suburbs? Nothing. Closest play ground is at the school. Yeah, that's fine, but that's because I'm lucky and live 5 minutes away. Other kids take the bus. They can't walk there. So since they can't really exercise or let loose like kids should, the energy is pent up and leaks out when it shouldn't, and normally wouldn't.

 

[marcray]

From my observations and studies there are quite a few different causes for ADHD behavior.

First of all, function determines structure. Basically what that means is the chemicals being off in the brain and the ADHD signs are symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself. The problem comes first, the chemical imbalance comes second.

Yes, bad parenting can play a role in bad behavior, but it's not the entire reason. If you've ever been around a kid who truly has ADHD symptoms, there's something off in their eyes. They're not here. When they look at you, they're not looking at you. It's pretty creepy. Kids who need more discipline have a different look about them, it's like they KNOW what they're doing. They're the kind of kid that will stick their hand in the cookie jar while watching you with a grin on their face, waiting to see what you'll do.

I can suffer from really bad ADHD symptoms, my particular case is just a food allergy. But boy, when I eat eggs I'm waaaay off and I feel like someone is screaming in my head. I think there are more additives and preservatives and hormones in food nowadays, and I think that has cause increased food sensitivities in children and it can give ADHD symptoms. I've heard so many cases of ADHD being solved by food allergy testing, and also testing for Candida.

But the last cause is just improper study technique and supervision at school. I've talked to so many teachers who have degrees but no idea how to really teach. How to watch a child for symptoms and know exactly what is wrong. If a child starts jiggling a leg or falling asleep then they have a word they don't understand. If they are sitting slouched or are upset they need a picture of what they're studying. And sometimes things just go too fast and they need to slow down. It's not dumbing down the material or making up diseases. It's teaching kids HOW to learn, and then giving them the responsibility. When kids are confused in school, that is when they act up. And once the confusion has gone too far, they give up or can't concentrate at all.

I've taught ADHD kids no problem. They don't exhibit symptoms in my class ever. I use a combination of study technology, responsibility for one's own actions, clear rules and agreement from the students (one should always get agreement from the students) and I teach each kid the way they learn best. Some need examples, some need to be left alone, some need to break things down into small parts, some need bigger challenges.

ADHD

I very much admire your commitment to helping to solve this problem in the classroom, it's great that you take the time to help the kids who need it in this way. A little understanding can go a long way. But does it not contradict the family issue you were stating earlier? Your cousins child I believe? Now I'm not saying you are wrong but let me explain first... I have friends who's son was displaying similar brat behaviour, noisy in company, a very smart mouth, just generally extremely disruptive and disrespectful to his parents. This seemed to be happening at school also. He saw social workers and doctors, no meds were prescribed until this continued for 2 years. He went on medication and improved for the last month of school and over the summer. When he went back to school it started again, yet much worse. His parents took him off the meds.

One day, his dad met him at school, not picking him up from the school bus. While he walked towards his father, a boy started shouting at him gay slurs that honestly had no business coming from the mouth of an 9 year old. His father was absolutely shocked. His son, fell apart in the car home. A complete mental meltdown. Parents were called to the school and allegations and counter allegations were made. The bullies parents disturbingly stood by their son. He was removed from the school. It's now a couple of years later and all is normal.

ADHD exists and the symptoms can be extremely disturbing. You can't always just teach it, exercise it or certainly not beat it out of them. Some may say that "oh he shoulda just thumped the bully" etc etc... well this was a good kid, a sensitive kid, who wouldn't hurt a flea and he was being tortured on a daily basis and he didn't even know what it meant what he was being called. If fights had started, things could have gotten even worse. I just read a story of a child's suicide as a result of a bully at school.

I'm editing to add a short story that happened when I was about 8, my sister was 3. A family friend had a son Lawrence, 7 years old. I remember he was a year younger than me. Remember, this was England, the mid-70's, before meds and school political correctness... Lawrence was so bad, they tied him to his chair in class. He was violent and a monster. No meds. One day, we were at his house, my mum and his mum were in the kitchen, I walked into his living room to check on my sister who was asleep. I found Lawrence with his hands around her neck and my sister almost blue. I rushed Lawrence, knocked him down and brought my sister around, she wasn't unconscious. It could have been a tragedy. My mother still sees Lawrence and his mum from time to time. Lawrence went into therapy in his late teens, he was medicated and now can remember nothing of his early years, like he was in a trance the whole time. He was apparently diagnosed with symptoms linked to ADHD. Today, there are kids walking around who have these same tendencies and problems. This could have been murder and tragedy that with correct attention and possible medication, could be avoided.

I say all this because you have no idea what may be going on in a child's head and life, even though you are able to control the symptoms in your class. You could be like a medication that could be just a temporary suppressant, a pressure cooker that could explode when your class is done with or the year under your supervision is over. That said, I don't intend to insult you or diminish your efforts, that's the last thing I want you to take from my comments, I just think that each child needs to be assessed individually and diligently, rather than cattle them together into your own personal diagnosis.

 

[jkritchey]

Lack of proper parenting and disciple is the single biggest cause of the increases in psychological issues in youth today, IMO

How much research have you put into this sweeping generalization?

Nice post MarcRay

 

[Bryan316]

I was at a friend's gig Sunday night. It was an all-ages show. So there were some youngins. That's just fine by me. There were two particularly little tykes, two boys maybe 3 and 4 years old. One band member's kids. Mom was on the floor right in front of the stage, kids running around like lunatics, mom laughing, kids screaming with glee. Burning energy like my truck burning gas. Mom would tackle them and tickle them, chase them a bit, nothing but smiles. No injuries! They'd slam into each other, trip and fall, and keep on truckin'. Jumped back up still smilin'. Ahh, kids.

But I noticed some people in the club watching these kids run rampant, sliding across the floor and running back again, with a look on their faces of disgust. If I were to put words to their faces, they'd be saying, "Those kids are out of control! What terrible parents! They should control them!"

NO! Absolutely not! They're KIDS! For christ's sake, they're KIDS! That's what kids DO! That's what I did when I was little, that's what my brother did when he was little, what all my friends, my cousins, my neighbors, my classmates... we ran around screaming! WE WERE KIDS!!!

I thought it rather original and pretty awesome, that they brought their munchkins to a rock concert and let them loose! Burn that energy! They need to, they're kids! The place wasn't jam-packed with moshing teenagers, it wasn't filled with dangerous chairs or tables, it was a wide open wooden dance floor. Equivalent of a gymnasium floor!

My only complaint is that it didn't look like they had ear protection, but then again earplugs can be hard to see sometimes.

I smiled. I watched them proudly. That's how kids should be raised. Screw bike helmets and elbow pads, man. I learned to be careful after I scraped up my elbows and knees! I learned to watch what I do when I cracked my head and started to cry! Kids can't learn that pain hurts if they never feel pain!!!


America is too soft. We're too overprotective. We're raising sissies and wimps. And if we can't put up with our kids acting like kids, we just drug em up. Call it ADHD. Call it a lack of focus.

Real nice, America.

 

[marcray]

total agreement Brian316... those kids sound completely normal... it's the kids with real emotional or violent problems that need to be assessed and helped. Most professionals believe that depression and emotional problems are linked to genetics and to completely dismiss ADHD would be a mistake. These kids may take those problems into their adult life and that could lead to more serious consequences.

That said, it probably is over-diagnosed.

 

[Kosko]

Were the Nintendo generation raised by hippies. We've got a million points of stimulation and advertisements coming in every direction. Mixed messages of sex and violence, which is the good one again? Millions of frequencies, radio waves, satellite waves pulsing through the very fabric of our developing brains since day one. We'll eat hormonally injected and processed foods day in and day out. What I don't understand is how someone can not have ADHD.

 

[Bryan316]

Were the Nintendo generation raised by hippies. We've got a million points of stimulation and advertisements coming in every direction. Mixed messages of sex and violence, which is the good one again? Millions of frequencies, radio waves, satellite waves pulsing through the very fabric of our developing brains since day one. We'll eat hormonally injected and processed foods day in and day out. What I don't understand is how someone can not have ADHD.

Muthatruckin BINGO.

You get the gold star for the day. Precisely what I believe is the true problem.

 

[Bryan316]

total agreement Brian316... those kids sound completely normal... it's the kids with real emotional or violent problems that need to be assessed and helped. Most professionals believe that depression and emotional problems are linked to genetics and to completely dismiss ADHD would be a mistake. These kids may take those problems into their adult life and that could lead to more serious consequences.

That said, it probably is over-diagnosed.

Shrinks oughta spend some time doing surveilance on the parents and see whether they're really interacting with their kids in the first place. Crap parents raise crap kids. Problem is, parents are too arrogant and ditzy to realise they're BAD parents.

I think most kids' problems would go away if parents let them ACT like children, and HELPED them develop, grow, and burn energy. Playing Nintendo with your kids doesn't mean SQUAT. Take your kids to the go-karts! Take em to the Moonwalk at the carnival! Take em to the park with the GOOD jungle gym! Chase em with the garden hose! NERF TOYS, MAN! Shoot yer kids with those Nerf Bow n Arrows, Nerf rockets, chase em with those foam-disc guns that float through the air!


If shrinks taught parents how to truly interact with their kids, instead of doping them down, the world would be a better place.


Leave the medication for those who are truly depressed or miswired. Give them the help when they truly need it. Quit over-diagnosing everything cuz the pharmaceutical companies got a Benjamin in your back pocket.

 

[Jamiebass]

I grew up in the 70s & 80s....

They had a cure for ADD and ADHD back then, It was called "Parenting & Discipline".

Straight up.

 

[middy]

And so what about the kid who can't concentrate on his schoolwork, can't listen to the teacher, can't stop re-arranging his desk, even if he really wants to?

Just give him a good stern talking too?

 

[marcray]

Shrinks oughta spend some time doing surveilance on the parents and see whether they're really interacting with their kids in the first place. Crap parents raise crap kids. Problem is, parents are too arrogant and ditzy to realise they're BAD parents.

I think most kids' problems would go away if parents let them ACT like children, and HELPED them develop, grow, and burn energy. Playing Nintendo with your kids doesn't mean SQUAT. Take your kids to the go-karts! Take em to the Moonwalk at the carnival! Take em to the park with the GOOD jungle gym! Chase em with the garden hose! NERF TOYS, MAN! Shoot yer kids with those Nerf Bow n Arrows, Nerf rockets, chase em with those foam-disc guns that float through the air!


If shrinks taught parents how to truly interact with their kids, instead of doping them down, the world would be a better place.


Leave the medication for those who are truly depressed or miswired. Give them the help when they truly need it. Quit over-diagnosing everything cuz the pharmaceutical companies got a Benjamin in your back pocket.

yeah agreed, but it must be stated that depression, alcoholism, drug dependency (even if it is the soft green stuff), is so damn common... probably more than half your street have these problems. Then you remember that these problems are linked to genetics and predisposition, not to mention the amount of drugs, hormones, additives, we're pumping into ourselves and our kids, it results in a lot of potential problems.

 

[Bryan316]

First take a look at the parents and how they interact with him. If the problem isn't there, then it's a valid argument for legitimate ADHD and actual clinical treatment from there.

 

[Bryan316]

yeah agreed, but it must be stated that depression, alcoholism, drug dependency (even if it is the soft green stuff), is so damn common... probably more than half your street have these problems. Then you remember that these problems are linked to genetics and predisposition, not to mention the amount of drugs, hormones, additives, we're pumping into ourselves and our kids, it results in a lot of potential problems.

Mmmmm... well, see I can follow and agree with the idea of being genetically predispositioned towards certain things. Behavior, personality, yes. Definitely. But alcoholism? No. Drug use? No. Sorry, my father is a full-blown alcoholic. He has a pint of Mad Dog tucked between his car seats, he sips the whiskey bottle all day long. He's a damned drunk. But my brother and I don't binge drink, we don't sip a flask all day long, we don't NEED a drink just to get through the day, we're not drunk before dinnertime. So I don't believe that everything can be linked to genetics or inheritance.

I DO, however, believe that a drunk father will influence his children to grow up to be drunks if those kids don't have a counterinfluence to show them to drink in moderation and enjoyment instead of dealing with stress. I've seen that plenty. I see far more examples of outside stimuli for poor behavior than I see inherited character flaws or medical conditions.

I truly believe that chemical dependency, whether alcohol soft or hard drugs, is something that grows from a character flaw or bad influences from childhood. Even crack babies can be weened and grow up normally if given the help they need.