Not really what I wanted to hear.

[rodl2005]

I take EVERY time I play. ..whether it's with seasoned pro's, by myself or with a group of less experienced guys. ...as a learning experience. If I stop learning EVERY TIME I play. ..it's time to stop. .imo.
But! !!! take every learning experience individually. .. i.e. some you learn that you're doing most things right. ...others you learn that part you thought you had nailed is slightly wrong or. ..whatever.
I've had everything from put downs thru to outright praise from all sorts.
Take what you think will help. ....try the other things, you might find they don't work for you. ... as with almost ANYTHING in music- it takes a cuppla minutes to try something different or new, it might work, it might not work. ..but, hey its worth a cuppla minutes to find out.
Then you can either disregard it or take it on board.

 

[John B jr]

Fair enough. But I'm not sure I completely buy into the whole jazz mystique. Some of it is very real. But a lot of it strikes me as simple posturing. Possibly my opinion is shaped by the fact I started with jazz and played that for about the first five years I was learning music, combined with how I really don't care much for how a lot of jazz sounds. Bebop and Dixieland Swing are about the only styles within the genre I could ever really appreciate if I was being honest with myself. But that's me.

In the case of the old cat, he was taking about my then half-assed knowledge of harmony and basic theory. And he was right. I didn't know what I needed to know half as well as I was kidding myself I did. And my laziness about correcting that deficiency was holding me back.

He meant well. And that's why I took everything he ever said (and he shared some other valuable advice with me) to heart.

To shorten up my opinion, it's easier to make a living playing in other genres. Not easy, just easier.

As to playing with those who have better chops, I'd pay to play rather than be the one who has to spoon-feed the notes to someone who just can't listen and learn. Not that I'm projecting or anything. LOL

 

[BAG]

Knowing when and when not to palm mute is the secret to good pick playing.

Also how much muting is required for each note. Lots of palm an inch or so away from the bridge (with flats and the tone rolled off a bit) for short double bass type sound.... just a little palm right near the bridge for slightly damped notes.... and everything in between.

 

[electracoyote]

I'd get a second opinion on that from other pros. Carol Kaye would be a good one.

+1

I think the advice was a bit misguided myself. The goal is to work on your picking technique and even out the attack so that you can't distinguish upstrokes from downstrokes. Palm muting and relying entirely on downstrokes is only a bandaid, a short-term fix that encourages playing with a limitation, and a terrible suggestion.

Some "experienced pros" feel obligated to give advice, sometimes when it's not relevant and even flat wrong, and sometimes solely for the purpose of maintaining the illusion of being an "experienced pro." I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen or experienced it.

 

[Hand slap]

So we've got this pro guitarist subbing for us, toured with national acts, recorded albums, tutor to the stars, etc. He's done three gigs and a rehearsal with us and it's been awesome but it hasn't been "social" as we're gigging not sitting around shooting the breeze. This weekend we had two gigs away so there was some social time and I got to know him a bit better. No dramas, good guy and very approachable.

So after the first set of gig two we were chatting about who is in tune and who isn't and I plucked up the courage to ask him something I simply can't ask anyone else as most non bass players or hacks like me would just say everything sounds good if you're in tune.

He knows I've been playing for only a few years and have no ego about my skills whatsoever so I asked "if there's one thing you'd want from my playing what would it be?"

He gave it a little bit of thought and said "technique". Bastard!

I wanted him to say I needed some new pedals, extra cabs or whatever but it came down to that thing I've gotta work at. Disappointed!

(NB. I applied a couple of his tips into the last two sets and the difference was notable, and good.)

Take it in stride, I have been playing a while, I try to work on "proper technique" I will tell you when playing gigs, having fun as far as I'm concerned, speaking for me, my "technique" can and does go right out the window, as long as your in the pocket. Now , proper technique, is key to good tone, and sound in many ways, so working on technique is an endless journey. Playing well with others, listening to everyone. and doing what needs to be done, is most important.

 

[40Hz]

To shorten up my opinion, it's easier to make a living playing in other genres. Not easy, just easier.

As to playing with those who have better chops, I'd pay to play rather than be the one who has to spoon-feed the notes to someone who just can't listen and learn. Not that I'm projecting or anything. LOL

I'll agree. Definitely easier if for no other reason than the number of available venues. But the jazz crowd I'm familiar with might have brought a little of that on themselves. Rockers will usually listen to blues. Bluesmen are usually ok with rock. But the jazzers I know aren't that catholic in their tastes. (As in they're a bit snobbish.) The ones I know all want exclusive jazz venues. If the place just does a jazz night or two each week many of them won't go.

And yes - i'm with you 100% on always preferring to be playing with one's musical betters. I'm always happier when it's me that's running to keep up rather than be the designated "best player" in the band. I enjoy being the student far more than I enjoy being a teacher.

 

[azureblue]

what he is telling you is something that should be told to a lot of players" Forget the hardware. Forget the which preamp tube is best, which stomp box will give me the sound of xxxx, etc. Work on your chops and groove first. You should be recording all of your bass practicing. Listen to your self play. You'll figure out real quick what you need to work on.

What he is telling you about your pick technique is that you don't have the pick chops to evenly stroke up and down, so just use a down stroke. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't practice on double picking until you get it right.

Do not take it personally, even though you did. He knows what good is and he told you what you need to do to get good. Do that.

 

[beatnut]

Wow, I bet that was tough to take.

Nah, not really. I've always thought that I have a lot to learn, and I take criticism as a challenge.

 

[GManfromOz]

Also how much muting is required for each note. Lots of palm an inch or so away from the bridge (with flats and the tone rolled off a bit) for short double bass type sound.... just a little palm right near the bridge for slightly damped notes.... and everything in between.

Yes, there is that. Driving back to Sydney now and listening to our songs to see where that technique fits.

I'll be down in Jindy in the holidays, I'll drop into the club for dinner and say hello if your around.

 

[GManfromOz]

what he is telling you is something that should be told to a lot of players" Forget the hardware. Forget the which preamp tube is best, which stomp box will give me the sound of xxxx, etc. Work on your chops and groove first. You should be recording all of your bass practicing. Listen to your self play. You'll figure out real quick what you need to work on.

What he is telling you about your pick technique is that you don't have the pick chops to evenly stroke up and down, so just use a down stroke. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't practice on double picking until you get it right.

Do not take it personally, even though you did. He knows what good is and he told you what you need to do to get good. Do that.

Yep, you nailed it. The "disappointed", though was tongue in cheek and set up the gear vs practice conversation. I was far from disappointed in his response in truth, it's gold my opinion.

+1

I think the advice was a bit misguided myself. The goal is to work on your picking technique and even out the attack so that you can't distinguish upstrokes from downstrokes. Palm muting and relying entirely on downstrokes is only a bandaid, a short-term fix that encourages playing with a limitation, and a terrible suggestion.

Some "experienced pros" feel obligated to give advice, sometimes when it's not relevant and even flat wrong, and sometimes solely for the purpose of maintaining the illusion of being an "experienced pro." I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen or experienced it.

+1

I think the advice was a bit misguided myself. The goal is to work on your picking technique and even out the attack so that you can't distinguish upstrokes from downstrokes. Palm muting and relying entirely on downstrokes is only a bandaid, a short-term fix that encourages playing with a limitation, and a terrible suggestion.

Some "experienced pros" feel obligated to give advice, sometimes when it's not relevant and even flat wrong, and sometimes solely for the purpose of maintaining the illusion of being an "experienced pro." I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen or experienced it.

He certainly wasn't just throwing his opinion out there, I actively sought it and he was totally honest.

"Illusion of being an experienced professional"? He's played with Joe Walsh and, for the Australians out there, was lead with Dragon for five years until Marc died, and toured with the Angels and Jimmy Barnes. As a hack i don't get the chance to get feedback from that level of player every day.

 

[electracoyote]

He certainly wasn't just throwing his opinion out there, I actively sought it and he was totally honest.

"Illusion of being an experienced professional"? He's played with Joe Walsh and, for the Australians out there, was lead with Dragon for five years until Marc died, and toured with the Angels and Jimmy Barnes. As a hack i don't get the chance to get feedback from that level of player every day.

Pfffft. All that name dropping means nothing to me, and I maintain that the advice was not good relevant long-term bass player advice. He was blowing hot air. I really couldn't care less whether you sought the advice or not, and his "honesty" doesn't score any points either.

I'll bet if that "experienced pro" guitar player were to give that advice to an "experienced pro" bass player, the bass player would tell him to stick it up his arse, or at least think a similar thought.

You want advice about technique regarding your pick playing and eighth notes? You'd do far better with the advice from people on this forum than almost any guitar player in the known universe. You have 100 fold more experience right here from bass players on TB than that "experienced pro" guitarist has.

Just because you're a "hack" and he's an "experienced pro" doesn't mean anything either. He should stick to giving advice about his chosen instrument, and not yours.

My point is simple: Don't get star-struck and believe everything some guitar player tells you about your bass playing. In this case, his observation may have been on target, but his remedy was dead wrong.

 

[BAG]

The goal is to work on your picking technique and even out the attack so that you can't distinguish upstrokes from downstrokes.

Yep!!

Yes, there is that. Driving back to Sydney now and listening to our songs to see where that technique fits.

I'll be down in Jindy in the holidays, I'll drop into the club for dinner and say hello if your around.

Do that for sure. If you're here on the 24th or 25th of July come and catch "The Hussy Hicks" playing live here at the Bowlo. They really are something special. I should be playing a few songs with them. For me that's one of those "playing with people much better than myself" situations.

He's played with Joe Walsh and, for the Australians out there, was lead with Dragon for five years until Marc died

Dragon always have had great guitarists working for them. Possibly the best known was Tommy Emmanuel. When I was a lighting roadie for them in the late 80's they had Mike Caen and Peter Northcote.... both brilliant guitar-slingers.

 

[GManfromOz]

Pfffft. All that name dropping means nothing to me, and I maintain that the advice was not good relevant long-term bass player advice. He was blowing hot air. I really couldn't care less whether you sought the advice or not, and his "honesty" doesn't score any points either.

I'll bet if that "experienced pro" guitar player were to give that advice to an "experienced pro" bass player, the bass player would tell him to stick it up his arse, or at least think a similar thought.

You want advice about technique regarding your pick playing and eighth notes? You'd do far better with the advice from people on this forum than almost any guitar player in the known universe. You have 100 fold more experience right here from bass players on TB than that "experienced pro" guitarist has.

Just because you're a "hack" and he's an "experienced pro" doesn't mean anything either. He should stick to giving advice about his chosen instrument, and not yours.

My point is simple: Don't get star-struck and believe everything some guitar player tells you about your bass playing. In this case, his observation may have been on target, but his remedy was dead wrong.

"I'll bet if that "experienced pro" guitar player were to give that advice to an "experienced pro" bass player, the bass player would tell him to stick it up his arse, or at least think a similar thought."

Yes, perhaps but that's not what the story is about is it? I'm five years in from never having picked up an instrument in my life and three on bass, I shouldn't ask for feedback from an experienced player/producer? I did pretty well in private business by employing people smarter than me and asking a heap of silly questions. It's cheaper than doing an MBA I can tell you And I certainly didn't believe everything one of those smarter people told me, you've just got to be selective. You know that already though.

Rremember, I asked him what HE wanted to hear in the mix and how I was sitting in it - that's the one thing I said.

Starstruck? Nah, but you've gotta respect experience. (He's a damn good bass player too so let's let that one go.)

 

[GManfromOz]

Do that for sure. If you're here on the 24th or 25th of July come and catch "The Hussy Hicks" playing live here at the Bowlo. They really are something special. I should be playing a few songs with them. For me that's one of those "playing with people much better than myself" situations.[/QUOTE]

Damn, I'll be there second week of the school holidays, the 10th I think. Anyway, by the looks of the snow at the moment I think we'll be having a bit of down-time in town.

 

[electracoyote]

"I'll bet if that "experienced pro" guitar player were to give that advice to an "experienced pro" bass player, the bass player would tell him to stick it up his arse, or at least think a similar thought."

Yes, perhaps but that's not what the story is about is it? I'm five years in from never having picked up an instrument in my life and three on bass, I shouldn't ask for advice? I did pretty well in private business by employing people smarter than me and asking a heap of silly questions. It's cheaper than doing an MBA I can tell you And I certainly didn't believe everything one of those smarter people told me, you've just got to be selective. You know that already though.

Rremember, I asked him what HE wanted to hear in the mix and how I was sitting in it - what's the one thing I said.

Starstruck? Nah, but you've gotta respect experience. (He's a damn good bass player too so let's let that one go.)

You want to believe he's so smart regarding bass guitar? Be my guest. Based on his suggestion, I don't think he's all that smart. You could have gotten the same irrelevant bad advice if you had asked a world-class fluglehorn player.

Any stringed instrument player should know that stroking the string in only one direction with a bow or a plectrum is incredibly limiting. Patently dumb advice.

I didn't criticize you for asking advice. I remain skeptical about your source and the nature of the advice you got.

 

[GManfromOz]

You want to believe he's so smart regarding bass guitar? Be my guest. Based on his suggestion, I don't think he's all that smart. You could have gotten the same irrelevant bad advice if you had asked a world-class fluglehorn player.

Any stringed instrument player should know that stroking the string in only one direction with a bow or a plectrum is incredibly limiting. Patently dumb advice.

I didn't criticize you for asking advice. I remain skeptical about your source and the nature of the advice you got.

Why, thank you old chum, your guest I shall be. I'd be happy to send you a clip of our recordings to get your feedback. (Not joking, good humour, no sarcasm and with due respect; but sadly the recordings feature the old guitarist we sacked not the sub).

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Just my opinion: if a guitarist -- any guitarist -- offered me advice on my bass playing that involved palm muting and using all downstrokes with my pick, I'd probably follow up with some conversations with actual bassists, because it kind of sounds like he gave you advice on how to play bass like a guitarist would.

I very respectfully disagree. Of course getting an advice from a fellow bass player is very valuable, but an advice from an experienced musician is a good one no matter what instrument s/he plays. I've been playing for almost 25 years now (I'm 37), and jamming with much older musicians always helps me learning or figuring out things that I've missed in my playing. That guitarist might not be a bass player, but most likely has played with thousands of them and most of them were most likely amazing.

 

[BAG]

Damn, I'll be there second week of the school holidays, the 10th I think. Anyway, by the looks of the snow at the moment I think we'll be having a bit of down-time in town.

It's not looking good at the moment. Hopefully we'll get a decent dump by then. I'm sure we can organize a jam of sorts if you're keen.

 

[pklima]

If you think that's bad, after Friday's show a guy (who happens to be a pianist) was like "you guys should get a bassist", haha.

 

[Duanestuermer]

When hired to play in a band, or most every gig you'll ever get, unless its as a temporary "sub", you will "not" be hired by a bass player. Other bassists may recommend you (or not), if they think you fit. But....
chances are, you will almost always be hired by BLs that are singers, drummers, guitarists keyboardists, horn players etc.