Note Selection question in walking bass line

[Groove Master]

Another interesting (and more acceptable than that half note E natural with Cm7 to me choice of bass notes) from Tyrone Wheeler's bass-lines.
(Taken from here: Invalid Link Removed)


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We have to find a name for that scale that is played a lot by Ray Brown and Ron Carter in a Blues. May be the Bebop scale for walking in turnaround ? LOL

 

[Whousedtoplay]

We have to find a name for that scale that is played a lot by Ray Brown and Ron Carter in a Blues. May be the Bebop scale for walking in turnaround ? LOL

We can call it Lydian Dominant Bebop scale.

 

[Groove Master]

We can call it Lydian Dominant Bebop scale.
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That is not the same scale. There is no 2nd and it has the perfect fourth instead. It is kind of a mixo blues-bebop what ever LOL

 

[Groove Master]

We can call it Lydian Dominant Bebop scale.
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That is a jazz mode based on the fourth mode of the melodic minor scale

 

[HandsFree]

There is always a "good" excuse for educated musicians - "Remember that Secondary Dominant?"

Yes, but it's poor musicianship to impose that on the other players when they are expecting a c minor chord.
Like I said, bass players are the only ones that can change the quality of the harmony like that, and that's a responsibility we should not take lightly.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That is not the same scale. There is no 2nd and it has the perfect fourth instead. It is kind of a mixo blues-bebop what ever LOL

I've noticed that 2nd/9th from the same F blues while in F7.

 

[Groove Master]

Well these are not important notes. They are the open G string for rhythm and position shifts purposes

 

[BassChuck]

OP: The E natural works fine if you think of the chord not as a Cm7 but rather as a C7#9/E. That way everyone is happy. Note choice works (it has all along) and the theory geeks can rest at ease knowing that no 'rule' has been broken.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Well these are not important notes. They are the open G string for rhythm and position shifts purposes

And I was so ready to post a name for that mode:
2 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 - Taishikicho: a mode of "rock boxes",
but with your answer...

 

[Groove Master]

Spoken like the lesser god of music and harmony you no doubt are. <*eyeroll*>

Well yes I agree with you that wasn't my best post I was trying too hard to make my point on something still important like the choice of bass notes.

 

[40Hz]

Well yes I agree with you that wasn't my best post I was trying too hard to make my point on something still important like the choice of bass notes.

Fair enough. I hear you. And I agree with you that the choice of bass notes is crucial to bringing out the best in a piece of music.

Apologies. I'm having a bad morning for a totally unrelated related reason.

I should know better to post when I'm in a mood.

I'm going to go back and delete my earlier post. It was uncalled for.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

OP: The E natural works fine if you think of the chord not as a Cm7 but rather as a C7#9/E. That way everyone is happy. Note choice works (it has all along) and the theory geeks can rest at ease knowing that no 'rule' has been broken.

Here is more info about that 7(#9) chord.
Link Removed

1. The history of a 7 (#9) chord
2. Where lays its origin of a 7 (#9) chord
3. How to make a 7 (#9) chord
4. 7 (#9) chord played in the intro of Shining Star
5. 7 (#9) chord played in the intro of Foxy Lady
6. 7 (#9) chords played in Taxman & The Word
7. 7 (#9) chord played in the blues chorus of Scuttle Buttin’
8. 7 (#9) chord played in the intro of Pick Up The Pieces...

From Mike Clairborne web-site:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Groove Master]

Fair enough. I hear you. And I agree with you that the choice of bass notes is crucial to bringing out the best in a piece of music.

Apologies. I'm having a bad morning for a totally unrelated related reason.

I should know better to post when I'm in a mood.

I'm going to go back and delete my earlier post. It was uncalled for.

Well good luck to you. I had that kind of day yesterday.

 

[nolaguy]

Irrespective of whether or not folks like the sound of it -- and some folks just might, much to your apparent surprise it would appear -- you've missed the point: That C-7 (with or without an E in the bass) doesn't occur in a vacuum, it occurs in the context of a chord progression. The harmony is designed to move, to draw the listener's ear from one area to another. It's not a static occurence, it's a kinetic moment within a larger piece of movement. Putting the E natural underneath that C-7 will (to most ears) make it more unsettling and less stable than an Eb would, but it will also be very effective at achieving the intended forward motion towards F7 and then eventual resolution.

It's 2016, dissonance isn't the devil's plaything anymore.

Also keep in mind that these ii-V- Is are going to be flying by really fast. You're not going to be sitting on ANY chord tone very long. You're not just addressing harmony at hand, you're also addressing the NEXT chord as well.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I had that kind of day yesterday.

Lucky you, I'm having those "moody" days everyday.

 

[Groove Master]

Lucky you, I'm having those "moody" days everyday.

Hahaha. It may be time to pick up the bass. Best remedy ever ;-)

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

IMO, it's a chromatic approach tone. End of story.

And for anyone talking trash about Tyrone Wheeler, shame on you. I've known him personally for over 30 years, played with him many times, and taught alongside him for the past 20 years at the Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshops. He's a great player, great musician, and great guy. If you don't like his baselines because you're parsing note choices, fine. But I can assure you that he's a player of the highest caliber, and I would be far more inclined to trust his musical wisdom than that of an anonymous naysayer on the internet. Same for Ed Friedland. Consider the source.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

And for anyone talking trash about Tyrone Wheeler, shame on you.

Chris, I doubt that anybody (including me) is "talking trash" about Tyrone Wheeler - an excellent bass player and a superb Jazz musician, but...
It would be really nice to hear from Tyrone about that E natural in Cm7 on Beat 3 and 4, at least
I, as a musician, would be interested to hear his answer about his choice of bass notes.

P.S. If ASKING questions (while trying to learn) about his choices of bass notes is "transcribed" here at TB as "talking thrash", then...

 

[Groove Master]

IMO, it's a chromatic approach tone. End of story.

And for anyone talking trash about Tyrone Wheeler, shame on you. I've known him personally for over 30 years, played with him many times, and taught alongside him for the past 20 years at the Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshops. He's a great player, great musician, and great guy. If you don't like his baselines because you're parsing note choices, fine. But I can assure you that he's a player of the highest caliber, and I would be far more inclined to trust his musical wisdom than that of an anonymous naysayer on the internet. Same for Ed Friedland. Consider the source.

I didn't see anyone talking "trash" about Tyrone Wheeler here. His use of the major third on the opening bar of AL Vol#54 came up in the discussion for the best of it. I don't understand your post

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Sorry if I misunderstood anyone, or attributed comments not about Tyrone or Ed as being about Tyrone or Ed. It's just that both obviously feel that chromatic approach notes on the beat before a resolution to a root are perfectly valid, yet their lines are being discussed with lots of commentary about the note choices that includes things like:

"..it doesn't support the harmony and it doesn't teach you anything good !!!"

" "banana peel" basslines - too many unjustified half-step approaches and movement."

" If you like the sound of a major third under a minor chord is up to you, bad taste in music does exist I guess or you are deaf. "

" The other example is the Lazy man's approach to the next chord"

" Here is what Friedland should have played and taught regarding that chromatic approach for that specific example..."

" it is not what an experienced player would play in that context."

" "Steal, Then Burn, This Book"

"it's poor musicianship to impose that on the other players when they are expecting a c minor chord"


My apologies for attributing them all as being about Tyrone. But it does paint players who feel that chromatic approach notes are valid with the same brush, and I don't think that characterizing the comments above as "trash talking" the knowledge and experience of the players making those choices is a big stretch.

While we're on the subject, it took me about 10 seconds to reach on the shelf and find a transcription book of lines played by another pretty good bass player over the bridge of "Confirmation". You'll notice that on the first walking chorus that I found, this pretty good bass player played a number of lower chromatic approach notes that seem to be contraindicated by a literal interpretation of the changes.

By the way, this "pretty good bass player" 's name is Ron Carter. Do we really want to include Mr. Carter's note choices in the broad brush strokes of the verbiage above?

I know I don't.