Note Selection question in walking bass line

[Don Kasper]

" "banana peel" basslines - too many unjustified half-step approaches and movement."

" "Steal, Then Burn, This Book"

These were my comments and opinions regarding 1.) a quarter note E under 2 beats of a Cmin7 chord leading to a F7, and 2.) a Half-Note E under 4 beats of Cmin7. I own, take responsibility for, and will continue to express these comments and opinions, unapologetically.
Just FYI.
Just my $0.03.
YMMV.
Thanks.
Don Kasper

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I can respect that.

So since Ron Carter does this all the time not only on playalongs but also on hundreds of classic recordings, would you unapologetically characterize his bass lines as "banana peel basslines with too many unjustified half step approaches" and advise students to "steal, then burn" books of Ron Carter transcriptions?

How about Ray Brown transcriptions? I just pulled another book off the shelf that shows Ray doing exactly the same thing on the bridge of "Have You Met Miss Jones". Should I burn that book too?

 

[Groove Master]

I can respect that.

So since Ron Carter does this all the time not only on playalongs but also on hundreds of classic recordings, would you unapologetically characterize his bass lines as "banana peel basslines with too many unjustified half step approaches" and advise students to "steal, then burn" books of Ron Carter transcriptions?

How about Ray Brown transcriptions? I just pulled another book off the shelf that shows Ray doing exactly the same thing on the bridge of "Have You Met Miss Jones". Should I burn that book too?

I did mention these two amazing players Brown and Carter in an earlier post about how good they are at simplifying turnarounds for example. And I should mention that part of the debate here was about playing the major third on a minor chord in a 2 beats chord. We are not against the chromaticism or passing-tone at all.

 

[Lownote38]

It's just an approach tone. An extremely common way to create tension and release in a walking bass line.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I did mention these two amazing players Brown and Carter in an earlier post about how good they are at simplifying turnarounds for example. And I should mention that part of the debate here was about playing the major third on a minor chord in a 2 beats chord. We are not against the chromaticism or passing-tone at all.

My point is that Carter and Brown do this often, as do Wheeler and Friedland. Why is it wrong for Wheeler and Friedland when it's OK for Carter and Brown?

 

[Groove Master]

My point is that Carter and Brown do this often, as do Wheeler and Friedland. Why is it wrong for Wheeler and Friedland when it's OK for Carter and Brown?

I think you are mixing things up. I suggest you take the time to read my posts, especially the last ones.

To close the subject on my side, I would prefer play over that ii-v bar in Bb: Eb-E-F more then C-E-F if I have to connect the F from below with 2 beats only, cheers!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think you are mixing things up. I suggest you take the time to read my posts, especially the last ones.

I can assure you that I have read your posts. About Friedland's lower chromatic approach note in the OP, you wrote:

...it doesn't sound right it doesn't support the harmony and it doesn't teach you anything good !!!

If you like the sound of a major third under a minor chord is up to you, bad taste in music does exist I guess or you are deaf.

The other example is the Lazy man's approach to the next chord

Here is what Friedland should have played and taught regarding that chromatic approach for that specific example

Like I said is that my examples I still play the E natural with better results in any kind of situation !!

Ed was simply doing something that Ray Brown and Ron Carter did all the time. You or anyone are free to criticize Ed for playing/writing/exemplifying this concept, but by association you are also criticizing Brown and Carter for the same thing.

 

[Groove Master]

I can assure you that I have read your posts. About Friedland's lower chromatic approach note in the OP, you wrote:











Ed was simply doing something that Ray Brown and Ron Carter did all the time. You or anyone are free to criticize Ed for playing/writing/exemplifying this concept, but by association you are also criticizing Brown and Carter for the same thing.

Oh No I am not but,

Ok then,

I have ONE request,

ASK ED...

Ask him if 25 years later he would write that same chapter the way he did!

We are talking about an instructional book for beginners here with an OP about that exact problem with the third. We, as educators, have to teach the right things and we cannot teach to bass players that is is ok to interchange thirds anyway we want within a chord. Chord quality does exist and should be taught and respected.If not, we will have a big anarchy problem with harmony no matter the style of music we play.

Yes I am aware that this is a very sensitive subject and there are examples where some masters did play a major third on a strong beat over a minor chord. I am all with that. The best example is right here with Tyrone's approach of the first bar of Autumn Leaves from volume 54 of the Aebersold catalog and also Ed's book. I have the disc AND the transcription book of Tyrone and I use it in my teaching. I own Ed's book also. I did spend some time during the thread to analyze Tyrone choice of the major third over that C minor chord and why it did sound better then any minor chord I played on my piano with the major third in the bass. And I came up with something based on the half-diminished chord based on what James played on the piano.

The thing that I wanted to bring up is that in an instructional book,that there should be (to me anyway) some instructions when you break some rules IMHO. And this is the case here.

Again, ASK ED about it. I bet he might say: Yes i might write that chapter a bit differently today. I know this was his first book and I know how hard it is to write the first book. It is impossible to write the "perfect" book also.

Please you have to understand that I am on TB as a professional musician first,then as an educator and teacher. It is hard on a forum like this to communicate especially when english is not your primary language but I do hope that you will get this. I am trying to share my experience as a professional musician and teacher even if I am on the bench after a stroke. Sharing my knowledge here keeps me alive and well;-) Cheers, GM

 

[Bob_Ross]

a transcription book of lines played by another pretty good bass player over the bridge of "Confirmation".

I initially misread that as "Californication" and so while reading the transcription kept thinking "Damn, Flea is a better player than I give him credit for!"

 

[Don Kasper]

Should I burn that book too?

You are, of course, free to burn any and all "instructional" books and CD's that you deem flammable.
I've made it very clear that I was speaking only in regard to my approach in hearing, playing and teaching.
Thanks.

 

[Don Kasper]

We are talking about an instructional book for beginners here with an OP about that exact problem with the third. We, as educators, have to teach the right things and we cannot teach to bass players that is is ok to interchange thirds anyway we want within a chord. Chord quality does exist and should be taught and respected.If not, we will have a big anarchy problem with harmony no matter the style of music we play.

Beautifully Articulated, my friend.
Thanks for your comments and interest.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Oh No I am not but,

Ok then,

I have ONE request,

ASK ED...

Ask him if 25 years later he would write that same chapter the way he did!

If I ever get the chance, I'd be happy to. In the meantime, I have all of those great Ron Carter and Ray Brown records to listen to where what I hear is them creating the guidelines for effective jazz bass lines rather than attempting to follow them. Obviously, everyone doesn't have to feel the same way about what they did as I do.

We are talking about an instructional book for beginners here with an OP about that exact problem with the third. We, as educators, have to teach the right things and we cannot teach to bass players that is is ok to interchange thirds anyway we want within a chord. Chord quality does exist and should be taught and respected.If not, we will have a big anarchy problem with harmony no matter the style of music we play.

I agree - it should be respected as an aspect of line building, and there's no shortcut around that.

Yes I am aware that this is a very sensitive subject and there are examples where some masters did play a major third on a strong beat over a minor chord. I am all with that. The best example is right here with Tyrone's approach of the first bar of Autumn Leaves from volume 54 of the Aebersold catalog and also Ed's book. I have the disc AND the transcription book of Tyrone and I use it in my teaching. I own Ed's book also. I did spend some time during the thread to analyze Tyrone choice of the major third over that C minor chord and why it did sound better then any minor chord I played on my piano with the major third in the bass. And I came up with something based on the half-diminished chord based on what James played on the piano.

I think what Tyrone plays there sounds fine. Knowing Tyrone, I'm also pretty sure that he wasn't analyzing James' piano voicing for a reason to play the notes he did when he played it. I think the line works because the lower chromatic note acts as a leading tone to the next target; it's just simple counterpoint, tension and release. The logic of the voice leading replaces the logic of the harmony, and it's the resolution that makes it work. The line I was talking about with Ray Brown playing leaping down from an Ab to a C natural to lead up to a Db on an Ab- to Db7 progression on the bridge of "Miss Jones" is a transposed version of exactly the same thing.

The thing that I wanted to bring up is that in an instructional book,that there should be (to me anyway) some instructions when you break some rules IMHO. And this is the case here.

I can't put words in these players'/educators' mouths, but their actions tell the listener that they felt that the resolution of the approach tone was compelling enough to use it in place of the theoretically "correct" note. I'm inclined to second guess the theoretical hierarchy of "adherence to harmonic correctness" as being unquestionably always above "integrity of contrapuntal line" rather than question the skill or understanding of the players who use this device. It doesn't have to be either/or black/white right/wrong. It's perfectly acceptable to teach both methods as viable options for line building and let the player's ear and musical taste decide, IMO.

Please you have to understand that I am on TB as a professional musician first,then as an educator and teacher. It is hard on a forum like this to communicate especially when english is not your primary language but I do hope that you will get this. I am trying to share my experience as a professional musician and teacher even if I am on the bench after a stroke. Sharing my knowledge here keeps me alive and well;-) Cheers, GM

I appreciate that, and am sorry to hear of your setback. I only entered the discussion because it seemed on the verge of coming off as disrespectful both to the master players who blazed the trail that we all now travel on, and to to the students of those same players who respect them enough to follow their path. Peace, CF.

 

[Groove Master]

If I ever get the chance, I'd be happy to. In the meantime, I have all of those great Ron Carter and Ray Brown records to listen to where what I hear is them creating the guidelines for effective jazz bass lines rather than attempting to follow them. Everyone doesn't have to feel the same way about what they did as I do.



I agree - it should be respected as an aspect of line building, and there's no shortcut around that.



I think what Tyrone plays there sounds fine. Knowing Tyrone, I'm also pretty sure that he wasn't analyzing James' piano voicing for a reason to play the notes he did when he played it. I think the line works because the lower chromatic note acts as a leading tone to the next target; it's just simple counterpoint, tension and release. The logic of the voice leading replaces the logic of the harmony, and it's the resolution that makes it work. The line I was talking about with Ray Brown playing leaping down from an Ab to a C natural to lead up to a Db on an Ab- to Db7 progression on the bridge of "Miss Jones" is a transposed version of exactly the same thing.



I can't put words in these players'/educators' mouths, but their actions tell the listener that they felt that the resolution of the approach tone was compelling enough to use it in place of the theoretically "correct" note. I'm inclined to second guess the theoretical hierarchy of "adherence to harmonic correctness" as being unquestionably always above "integrity of contrapuntal line" rather than question the skill or understanding of the players who use this device. It doesn't have to be either/or black/white right/wrong. It's perfectly acceptable to teach both methods as viable options for line building and let the player's ear and musical taste decide, IMO.




I appreciate that, and am sorry to hear of your setback. I only entered the discussion because it seemed on the verge of coming off as disrespectful both to the master players who blazed the trail that we all now travel on, and to to the students of those same players who respect them enough to follow their path. Peace, CF.

I don't think the discussion was going in the direction you are describing, not at all. You do put words in my mouth that I didn't say, period. So long.

 

[Don Kasper]

It's perfectly acceptable to teach both methods as viable options for line building and let the player's ear and musical taste decide, IMO.

There seems to be a trend in jazz academia to present a mountain of historically cited and codified options and approaches to students, all presented as equally valuable and worthwhile. I don't find this particularly effective when teaching, as it creates an unwieldy and massive amount of material for the student to sift through. (i.e., see the "E natural under a Cmin7" discussion above). I am at the point in my teaching where I make it clear to my students that I am conveying to them the approaches that work for me, NOT offering an historical smorgasbord of (seemingly) equal, valid approaches that other players and teachers may have had success with over the past few hundred years. At some point, yes, the student/player's ear and musical taste should and will be the final judge. I'm (hopefully) giving them the benefit of my decades of experience and strongly suggesting to them the direction that I believe will get them to eventually hear and make those decisions on their own - NOT because they read it in an "instructional" book, or were told that it was "OK" because a teacher had told them so, OR, heard a legendary bassist play it that way. (Don't get me started on the "Deification" of legendary musicians - another spinoff of jazz academia? - "Never Criticize a Legend!")
If young students' ears and musical tastebuds were capable of hearing and deciding, they wouldn't need teachers. I feel a real responsibility these days to "either fish or cut bait", when it comes to presenting my opinions and approaches. If that means flying in the face of accepted "instructional" method books, trends, or listening critically and evaluating recordings of legendary players, so be it.
IMO. (no "H"!)
Thanks.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I agree with most of the above, with the exception of the parts about "NOT because they .... heard a legendary bassist play it that way" "If that means flying in the face of.... listening critically and evaluating recordings of legendary players, so be it". Listening critically to great recordings and evaluating what the players on those recordings played and how is the foundation of jazz education and has been since the inception of this music.

I would say that jazz theory is like any other theory: the music came first, then people wrote books detailing concepts regarding how it was done about how it was done. Sometimes the books miss the point of the source material they are attempting to explain.

When I listen to Ron Cater lines, I hear "it's fine to outline the exact harmonic color, and also fine to play a contrapuntal line that arrives at important target points via its own independent logic". I hear the same from Ray Brown, and certainly from more harmonically advanced players like Charlie Haden and Drew Gress who tend to approach the bass line as counterpoint. One man's mountain is another man's mole hill, I guess.

While it is important to understand harmony when building bass lines, IMO it's equally important to understand melodic counterpoint. In the end, we each need to ask ourselves whether any bass line sounds good to us and makes sense to our ears. The kinds of line under discussion in this thread, as played by Ed Friedland, Tyrone Wheeler, Ron Carter, and Ray Brown sound good to me, so I have no problem teaching the principles behind them to students. And since all of these players outline harmony directly and use chromatic approaches as resolution counterpoint, it makes sense to teach students to mix the two concepts as the masters did. I don't see anything terribly mountainous about it.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

another spinoff of jazz academia? - "Never Criticize a Legend!"

After an emotional echange of different "schools of thoughts (!)", I still could not get that very simple answer about that "E natural in Cm7 on Beat 3 and 4".

Let's start.

OK. Here is what I've read - (a) for the beginner(!!!) and (b) 3rds are very important!

Now.
Without ANY emotions here is my (let's assume I'm that beginner!) question again about "E natural in Cm7 on Beat 3 and 4".

Oh, yes.
An educated and experienced bass player posted an interesting comment,

The E natural works fine if you think of the chord not as a Cm7 but rather as a C7#9/E. That way everyone is happy.

A very good answer. I've probably missed that C7(#9) chord in the book. Let's see.

No, nothing here.

Let's check further.

Also, nothing(!) said about that interesting C7(#9)/E "construction.

P.S. I hear the following notes in that Cm7 chord on the piano - Bb (D) Eb F G.

My question.

Is it "talking thrash" if I have a Question about that specific spot from the "play-along" for the beginners(!) and post it here at TB - the premier online community/forum for bass players?

P.S. I've noticed the following note C - E with Cm choice became like some kind of "dogma" - Everybody must use it without any questions!

In the following example, we have one bar of Cm with the quarter notes of C E natural G C in the bass:

In this example, the same C/E notes but with C7.
(To sum up. If you have Cm or C7 chords, just play C and E notes and you'll be OK.)

Anyway. I got my answer about that E natural with Cm; therefore, I'd rather ask a
different question about the bass note choice of Gb/Gb with Cm from Tyrone Wheeler's bass-line.

(P.S. I have my "dogma" - I would play that G note after Ab as half-step down - minor 2nd - instead of jumping up to G as a major 7th interval.)

Is it about the contour of the bass-line?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

My question.

Is it "talking thrash" if I have a Question about that specific spot from the "play-along" for the beginners(!) and post it here at TB - the premier online community/forum for bass players?

Of course not. But in my opinion, some of the comments about the sorts of bass lines musically espoused by Friedland and Wheeler were treated with some pretty dismissive and disrespectful verbiage that I compiled in this post. It felt to me like several people were trying to "shout down" Friedland's position as stated in the book. I took exception to that and posted a counter argument to that position. Reading the thread felt a bit like witnessing some sort of dogmatic online theory bullying taking place, where a concept was turned into a black/white soundbite that can be proven to be incontrovertibly wrong.

IMO, it isn't like that at all. To make that point, I simply pointed out that if Friedland and Wheeler were in fact "incorrect" to play the concept the way they did in these examples, then Ron Carter and Ray Brown, by association, must have also been "wrong" all along since they both did the exact same thing for decades.

P.S. I've noticed the following note C - E with Cm choice became like some kind of "dogma" - Everybody must use it without any questions!

I haven't noticed anyone saying that at all. What I have seen is several people opine that this way of approaching any downbeat can be easily explained as a chromatic approach note from below, and point out that some of the greatest bass players in the history of jazz used this technique regularly in their lines throughout their careers.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Anyway. I got my answer about that E natural with Cm; therefore, I'd rather ask a
different question about the bass note choice of Gb/Gb with Cm from Tyrone Wheeler's bass-line.

(P.S. I have my "dogma" - I would play that G note after Ab as half-step down - minor 2nd - instead of jumping up to G as a major 7th interval.)

Is it about the contour of the bass-line?
View attachment 936768

I can't speak to the contour question, but knowing Tyrone I'm guessing he was hearing those two minor chords as mi7b5 chords and emphasizing the dissonance before resolution.

 

[Groove Master]

After an emotional echange of different "schools of thoughts (!)", I still could not get that very simple answer about that "E natural in Cm7 on Beat 3 and 4".

Let's start.
View attachment 936754

View attachment 936755

OK. Here is what I've read - (a) for the beginner(!!!) and (b) 3rds are very important!

Now.
Without ANY emotions here is my (let's assume I'm that beginner!) question again about "E natural in Cm7 on Beat 3 and 4".

Oh, yes.
An educated and experienced bass player posted an interesting comment,



A very good answer. I've probably missed that C7(#9) chord in the book. Let's see.
View attachment 936757
No, nothing here.

Let's check further.
View attachment 936758

Also, nothing(!) said about that interesting C7(#9)/E "construction.

P.S. I hear the following notes in that Cm7 chord on the piano - Bb (D) Eb F G.

My question.

Is it "talking thrash" if I have a Question about that specific spot from the "play-along" for the beginners(!) and post it here at TB - the premier online community/forum for bass players?

P.S. I've noticed the following note C - E with Cm choice became like some kind of "dogma" - Everybody must use it without any questions!


View attachment 936763

In the following example, we have one bar of Cm with the quarter notes of C E natural G C in the bass:
View attachment 936767 View attachment 936766
In this example, the same C/E notes but with C7.
(To sum up. If you have Cm or C7 chords, just play C and E notes and you'll be OK.)

View attachment 936765


Anyway. I got my answer about that E natural with Cm; therefore, I'd rather ask a
different question about the bass note choice of Gb/Gb with Cm from Tyrone Wheeler's bass-line.

(P.S. I have my "dogma" - I would play that G note after Ab as half-step down - minor 2nd - instead of jumping up to G as a major 7th interval.)

Is it about the contour of the bass-line?
View attachment 936768

Good examples again ;-)
Anyway, I think sometimes people take for granted what is written in a book a little bit too much.

Here is an example from your music sheet. BTW I am just interpreting here ;-):

When we have a transcript of a Blues walking bass like some posted here in this thread, most of the time the chord symbols are the GENERIC chords progression and don't take in account what does happen at the moment and a too focused academic analysis is done by justifying that note and that note which is usually not the best thing to do.

Same as trying to justify that it is accepted among professionals musicians (?) that it is ok to interchange thirds anytime and change chord quality in a bassline for no reason !

Like in a turnaround,a lot of stuff is happening at the same time.The piano player play subs or all dominants while the soloist is playing a blues riff and the bass plays the standard set of changes and next chorus might be totally different.

Let's not forget our primary role: Bass is the base !!!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Chris,
I think Groove Master clearly described the issue/problem with a lot of bass jazz tutorials when a jazz pianist doesn't play that simple Cm chord but some intricate sub. You are a Teacher - I hope you do Not limit chord choices to some simplified innocent triad while talking about superb bass players' bass-lines.
About that "C-E" pattern.
I've noticed it.
Also, for those who had some exposure to old-fashioned music theory, it's not so easy to accept that chromatic approach note that changes the chord quality.
Plus, It's up to me as a musician to play/use that trick/device or not, and express my opinion about it.
Should I color my kitchen the same way as Stanley Clarke did?
I truly believe that overwhelming promoting of those chromatic notes tends to dull Jazz, as some easy solution to all our issues.