• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Obsolete bass amps

IMHO, the only obsolete amps are the newer ones. Most are made so they are not repairable. The boards are all surface mount and usually the only way to repair the amp, is to replace the boards. That would be fine if the boards didn't cost as much or more than the amp. I went through many of the newer light weight class D heads. I found none to be impressive as far as tone, just lots of power. The only ones that came close for me were the Genz Benz heads and even those never got me to where I wanted to be and now they are gone. So currently I have 2 heads that give me what I want. One is a 1986 A.M.P. BH420 and the other is a mid 2000s Eden WT550. To me, the tone is worth the extra weight and neither IMHO is "obsolete". (and they are both repairable)
 
Ok, we know the SVT and V4B are still viable but what about all of the other brands (mostly SS amps) that appeared in the 80's until the latest class D amps sort of 'took over'?

I have an Eden Metro and a GK 800RB both of which i think are solid even today....even my Music Man HD150...getting into bass from a guitar world i was taken with the number of brands to choose from that i saw on stages thru the past decades.

Which of these amps that were at one time considered 'top tier' are now relegated to the scrap heap, possibly in terms of weight and size being a factor?

Are many not even worth repairing even though they may have been among the preferred examples just a few years back?

The old Fender, Vox and Marshall circuits have survived in the guitar world...but what is still viable in the bass amp world?
All of those are still viable if they drive the cabs you want to use to the level you need AND you don't mind lugging them around. I have a 1999 Eden WT500/800 that I use as my main amp. It was upgraded to 800-watts from 500-watts thus the "/800" after the 500. It has all the power I need and sounds fabulous. Like channel 2 on your Metro, it has a hybrid preamp meaning it has a tube in the otherwise SS preamp.

That tube in the Eden amps is specifically to generate the warmth of sound that they are known for. It also has a crazy versatile EQ set up - bass and treble Shelving EQ's PLUS three semi-parametrics EQ's. With all that versatility though, I usually run all the EQ flat except for a little boost ~250Hz to give my passive Jazz some nice definition and presence in the mix.

I bought that amp directly from David Nordschow (aka: David Eden) after he sold Eden, left the company, and started DNA. I have two of his DNA cabs and got the DNS-210 last year when I was first accepted into the group of DNA Endorsing Artists. My "old amp" sounds absolutely amazing through either my DNS-410 or my DNS-210. I got the 210 because it can handle all of my indoor venues, especially those couple of small venues that wouldn't let me roll in my DNS-410 because it was "way to big for here".

So I run it bridged at 800-watts into my 8 ohm DNS-210 (handles 700-watts rms) indoors, and will also run it bridged at 800-watts into my DNS-410 (handles 1,400-watts rms). The max I can run the master indoors on the 210 is 10 to 10:30 and the max I can run the master on the 410 is a smidge over 10 o'clock at outdoor festivals. If I turn it above those levels I get told to turn it down. The only disadvantage to my Eden WT500/800 is that it weighs about 36-lbs in its rack.

But you know the Class-D amps are getting better and better. When they first came out they really didn't seem to have any headroom. As soon as you hit their max output they clipped and it sounded bad. Almost seemed like the rms and peak were the same - that's just how it sounded. Now days they seem to have that full +3db headroom that we came to expect with the class A/B amps. I can get (and will) a DNA-800 amp that will put out 800-watts into 4 ohms and it just weighs 4.8-lbs. For an old fart like me, that's a big incentive to get a class-D amp.

And when those class D amps started coming out the maximum power was 500-watts into 4 ohms. That's because virtually all of them used the same power section from the same supplier. Now there are a lot of 800-watt class D amps out and DNA came out with their 1350-watt class D amp back in 2014 and their DNA-800 in 2017.

I actually already have a class-D amp but it's a low powered one. I have an Eden TN-226 (225-watts) that I specifically bought to play at one small venue where we hosted Open Mic Nights 4o to 45-times a year. It weighs 4.7-lbs. I have a shoulder bag for it and carry it over my shoulder in the shoulder bag, grab my Eden EX112 cab by its top handle; grab my bass in the other hand; and load-in/out is just about done.

This little class-D amp has only 2 semi-parametrics plus the treble and bass EQ's compared to the 3 semi-parametrics in my big Eden amp, but it sounds just as good and I do love the portability of it. I just need a more high-powered one, which is why I'd like a DNA-800. There are plenty of 800-watt class D amps now so there is quite a bit of choice. Even though your Metro weighs a ton, it's still a great amp, so not hardly a trash heap. I do think that most options are going to move away from class A/B amps though just because of their weight and the fact that the class-D are now performing similar to the older heavy amps they are trying to replace.

So they're not hardly going on the trash heap but the used prices on them are already dropping and will continue to do so. Good news is that makes some great amps available to folks who otherwise couldn't afford that level of quality and sound while the "working band" segment of musicians moves more and more towards the class D amps because they are so easy to move around.
 
Keith - it appears as though the protection circuits worked as intended. You are lucky that none of your amps were damaged by faulty power, that's the purpose of the protection circuits. I have seen plenty of conventional amps that have been damaged by power problems as well. I think you are confusing an "amp problem" with a "power problem". Some newer class D amps have additional power supply features that allow the amp to operate at lower voltages than a conventional amp as well, but this is not a universal statement. The global safety regulations (assuming the amp is in fact designed to current safety standards) requires that the amp continue to operate down to 108V, Some (including those I have designed) operate all the way down to 100V guaranteed with almost no loss of power, and with additional loss of performance down to 85V. A conventional amp at 100V would lose approx 40% of rated power (if it continued to operate at all).


IMHO, the only obsolete amps are the newer ones. Most are made so they are not repairable. The boards are all surface mount and usually the only way to repair the amp, is to replace the boards. That would be fine if the boards didn't cost as much or more than the amp.
Yet this is not true in many cases, certainly not in any of the amps I have designed, but there are plenty of others as well. The only surface mount component is the power module, and in that case it's generally LESS expensive to replace compared with repairing, and certainly not anywhere near the cost of the amp. Everything else is conventional thru hole technology, easily repaired assuming the tech is qualified. Those who can not repair thru-hole PCB amps are simply completely unqualified.
 
Yet this is not true in many cases, certainly not in any of the amps I have designed, but there are plenty of others as well. The only surface mount component is the power module, and in that case it's generally LESS expensive to replace compared with repairing, and certainly not anywhere near the cost of the amp. Everything else is conventional thru hole technology, easily repaired assuming the tech is qualified. Those who can not repair thru-hole PCB amps are simply completely unqualified.

Those who can’t do at least rudimentary SMT repairs on something like a simple analog preamp are becoming at least arguably close to being unqualified too, IMHO. :cool:
 
Ok, we know the SVT and V4B are still viable but what about all of the other brands (mostly SS amps) that appeared in the 80's until the latest class D amps sort of 'took over'?

I have an Eden Metro and a GK 800RB both of which i think are solid even today....even my Music Man HD150...getting into bass from a guitar world i was taken with the number of brands to choose from that i saw on stages thru the past decades.

Which of these amps that were at one time considered 'top tier' are now relegated to the scrap heap, possibly in terms of weight and size being a factor?

Are many not even worth repairing even though they may have been among the preferred examples just a few years back?

The old Fender, Vox and Marshall circuits have survived in the guitar world...but what is still viable in the bass amp world?

I was not aware of any "Obsolete" Bass Amps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pauly 4001
I saw him use that rig. Sounded most excellent. He liked Altec 421As in place of the JBLs. I'd take either now. I would be sorely tempted if I found any in great shape the way people find old cars abandoned in great shape in garage.

That's close to how I picked up a few of mine. One 2000s rig was from Yale's music department, just had to replace a smoked choke, and my dead mint 1000s came out of Whittier most likely (still has most of its original GEC KT88s, and one RCA 6550). Then I have a basket case 6x12 I need to rehab
 
  • Like
Reactions: chadds
Keith - it appears as though the protection circuits worked as intended. You are lucky that none of your amps were damaged by faulty power, that's the purpose of the protection circuits. I have seen plenty of conventional amps that have been damaged by power problems as well. I think you are confusing an "amp problem" with a "power problem". Some newer class D amps have additional power supply features that allow the amp to operate at lower voltages than a conventional amp as well, but this is not a universal statement. The global safety regulations (assuming the amp is in fact designed to current safety standards) requires that the amp continue to operate down to 108V, Some (including those I have designed) operate all the way down to 100V guaranteed with almost no loss of power, and with additional loss of performance down to 85V. A conventional amp at 100V would lose approx 40% of rated power (if it continued to operate at all).



Yet this is not true in many cases, certainly not in any of the amps I have designed, but there are plenty of others as well. The only surface mount component is the power module, and in that case it's generally LESS expensive to replace compared with repairing, and certainly not anywhere near the cost of the amp. Everything else is conventional thru hole technology, easily repaired assuming the tech is qualified. Those who can not repair thru-hole PCB amps are simply completely unqualified.

I am happy that my amps were not damaged so on that point I agree but when I go to a gig I am there to play; not to test equipment and my SS amps have been more reliable for me in my experience as they did not cut out, turn off or burn up. That having been said they are back ups for a reason; I love my GK amps and my newer Acoustic head so I am not suggesting turning away from the new gear; just beware and have a plan B.
 
  • Like
Reactions: agedhorse
I don't quite follow the supposed logic of this topic. In some form of thinking newer amps and technologies will obsolete the older ones but in another form of thinking we may find - if not usefulness - then at least nostalgy and appeal in the older stuff. Musical instruments and technology doesn't neccessarily "age" like common household Items such as dishwashers and microwave ovens.

If we, for example, compare good modern violins to Stradivarius the modern ones are built better and in a blind test the modern ones even sound better. By all means in theory modern bulk instruments should have obsoleted the Stradivarius violins but in practice it just didn't go that way. In other fields of life people are still getting their kicks from more than 50-year old tube technology or 200 years old steam engines. Art and hobbies are a strange thing.

Even from old amps with horrible reliability and very limited functionality some folks will always find some sort of vintage appeal or just the right unique tone that works in that single specific arrangement and nowhere else.

‘Every dog has its day.’ —Willie Lee Shakespeare
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pauly 4001
I still want a Marshall Super Bass. I couldn't foresee playing in venues where 100 watts with judicious breakup won't be enough (or there will be PA support). Now the problem lies with finding a cabinet that complements the midrange and overdrive profile with speakers that doesn't blow up (Edit: asthe original 1935 cabs allegedly did).
 
I stopped using some rigs just for practical reasons, weight, logistics, etc. As for the performance, I still love a GK 400 RB or a 15" cabinet. I used to gig with a SWR Son of Bertha 15" paired with a SWR Working Pro 210 and a GK 400 RBn head. That was a killer rig. One night, coming from the gig, one of the cabinets felt on my knee and that was real painfull. So, I decided to go for a smaller rig. I ended up with a GK MB 212. 36 pounds, 500 watts.
 
I don't know about obsolete, but back in my rocker days I had a nice Hartke rig. The 3500 head in particular was exceptional. I whipped the absolute crap out of that thing, and it never skipped a beat. That was back when you could smoke in bars...ahhh those were the days...

Eventually I traded it to a friend because it was collecting dust for years, but part of me still regrets it.
I had a 3500 Mosfet back in the early 1990’s. It was glorious! Ive had a few of the model 3500’s and two of the HA3500s since then. The latest version (current model) sounds exactly like my old Mosfet. The ones in between were ranging from about 70% as good for the late 90’s “model 3500” to about 90% as punchy for one from about ten years ago. I have no complaints about the current HA3500, and no problems lifting it. It blows my Rumble 500 head out of the water on punchiness, clarity, flexibility, and sheer volume. Still, for some reason I am not in a hurry to get rid of the Rumble. It matches some of my cabs and has character all it’s own.
 
Yet this is not true in many cases, certainly not in any of the amps I have designed, but there are plenty of others as well. The only surface mount component is the power module, and in that case it's generally LESS expensive to replace compared with repairing, and certainly not anywhere near the cost of the amp. Everything else is conventional thru hole technology, easily repaired assuming the tech is qualified. Those who can not repair thru-hole PCB amps are simply completely unqualified.
I have not owned a Mesa, so not familiar with their design. The ones I have had experience with were EBS, Euphonic Audio, the later Eden class D and Traynor class D. All of those were 90% surface mount. There were a few others that I can't recall at this time (I'm old). So my opinion was based on the ones I've owned. Thanks for the reply.
 
Last edited:
I am set up and ready to go in the time it takes to do that second trip to the car and back.

Yeah, but there's no 24 second shot clock here, and unless you're the last one in the band to be setup and ready to go, it's completely immaterial. Also, there are carts/dollies/etc...

I did feel it was necessary to go out and buy a Bag End S15D or whatever it is so I can play bass in my office or anywhere else I care to plug in my trusty early and modded SWR SM400.

Nice. Also, nice EX5 (I have one too).

the seller of the Bag End did rather sanctimoniously tell me when I bought it that with front of house PAs and new technologies that there was no reason to own such a speaker.

What a weird sales strategy.

Anyway, I think a lot of this comes down to people being trendy followers and addicted to novelty. Like, the ELF is not a BETTER amp than the earlier Trace stuff, but everyone wants one just because it's new and tiny, while the old stuff is hard to sell. Although I just sold a surplus Peavey era AH 500-7 a few weeks ago and the guy wrote VERY enthusiastically about how it sounded, and that was the "budget" amp in the line. But I would definitely take that amp (I still have an AH 600-12, which is a more full featured, better sounding amp) over pretty much any MB500, PF500, LM500, etc... type of amp, even with the 25 lb or so weight difference. That 10+ year old 30+ lb Trace just had a liveliness and immediacy that I just haven't really heard from more modern heads. I do really like my ShuttleMax, but that's like using a hybrid McLaren to defend the performance of a Prius. It could also just be that the class D examples above just have really generic and uninspiring preamps and it's not really about the power section and/or they've been plugged into lackluster cabs when I've tried them in a GC or whatnot.

But I plug in my 600-12 or my GBE 750 and I'm like "oh, this is fun". They just have a sparkle to them, especially through something like my Goliath III (which sadly I'll have to part with due to space and financial concerns). I mean, those are world class heads and cabs. They don't become not that just because something lighter comes along. Less convenient maybe. Cheaper, definitely. With the 600-12 I feel like I got a ZR1 for like Grand Prix prices. The 750 is more like a really nice diesel pickup of brute force and a little rougher around the edges.

SWR stuff may not be for everybody these days, BUT, it is extremely usable for basically any style or purpose, and if you're after a certain sort of studio bass sound, or various flavors of funk, fusion, rock, etc... it's fantastic. The cabs are going to depend on what head you pair with them. And vice versa. My Bass 350 (which is sadly out of commission, but only due to physical damage of the power socket that I haven't had a chance to have replaced yet) through a GIII is like Chuck Rainey died and went to Steely Dan heaven. It's got that clean and open hifi tube sound that's not harsh or dark, it's warm and open and invites dynamic playing. So that stuff isn't "obsolete" as long as tasteful playing with great tone is still in demand anywhere. Not "in style", sure. Not that convenient (zomg, the Bass 350 weighs 16 whole pounds! or not quite as much as a MM5 in a hardshell case).

The stuff that's obsolete would be like the cheesy early SS stuff where they had no idea what they were doing, so the engineering department was in the wilderness while the marketing department was lost in the sauce and the design department was high out of their gourds. This is for guitar, but I remember a friend had a "720" combo (Univox?), and it was NOT good. The distortion was like "why would you even put that in there?" (about the same quality as the one on the Roland JC120 which is the ONLY failing of an otherwise GREAT amp).

But stuff that sounded great will always sound great as long as those sounds are applicable to something that someone wants to do. And you can also just use it differently than it was back then. Like everyone in the 80s bought a DX7 and just used it for the stupid doogie howser electric piano sound, but FM synths can actually do some pretty wild soundscapes and all kinds of other stuff and are starting to come back now (Yamaha recently made FM a big part of their flagship Montage workstation). So you strip away the cheesey 8 bit gated reverb and cheesy chorus, and dig into the programming and it becomes like a new instrument, or at least a completely recontextualized one.

Anyway, I always come back to the same thing in these types of threads, if you're averse to gear that weighs more than a few pounds, you really picked the wrong instrument. If you went to play with a new drummer and he showed up with an inflatable kit because he was worried about weight and size, be honest, you would not take him very seriously. I know as a sound guy, what makes me happiest when the night's band is coming in, is seeing clearly well curated gear that's appropriate for the style and the setting. It doesn't necessarily guarantee they'll use it to best effect, but it's like the brown m&ms, it shows they're at least paying attention and making an effort. Whereas if a guy shows up with a $100 behringer craigslist special and a 1x10 to a club gig, now I have to create the bass from scratch in the PA, and depending on the place, MAYBE I don't relaly have the firepower to do that. So if you want to make the sound guy happy, show up with the best quality gear you can afford that can carry the room if necessary, and if it's not necessary, DON'T TRY TO CARRY THE ROOM. It's like the joke about a gentleman is a man who can play the accordion, but doesn't. So don't be lazy, research your gear, choose it well (a 200w class D amp and a neo 1x10 might be enough for what you do, but make sure that's really the case and it's not just because you don't want to carry any more), and then use it appropriately. If you do that, almost no gear could ever be obsolete, if it fits the role it's supposed to.
 
Now, let's talk about obsolete basses. I can't believe people are still using those 60 year old tacky P basses. I mean, geez. Ok, grandpa, we get it. You were Abraham Lincoln's history teacher and saw Jesus live with the original lineup. Get with the times and buy a Soundgear, dude. Not some old fashioned hokey 1 pickup bass named after a car part.
 

Latest posts