Offensive Halloween Costume

[Deleted member 269102]

Amazing how ignorant some people can be. I really believe that there is a significant portion of the population that would prefer we resumed the social norms of 100 years ago.

Sorry - wasn't trying to derail the thread. I'm a bass player and a software engineer. Both are typically male endeavors, and some days I feel like I still have to work my arse off just to be seen as more than "the engineering chick" or "huh, they have a girl on bass". If wanting to be judged on my abilities and not my sex (or looks) is feminism, well, guilty as charged.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

It start to be ridiculous how PC this world is ... can't do anything without be treated as a racist and has to appologies ... man ...

 

[MeLikeBass]

You ever notice that no matter what a person does there will ALWAYS be somebody offended by it? Do whatever you want, F#$K everybody.

 

[40Hz]

Right then. I'll put down my bass and get back to the kitchen.

Good. You can join me in a glass of something and some intelligent discussion when you get there. I'm wiring up a new project on the kitchen table.

p.s. there's coffee, tea, a decent wine, and some Sam Adams Octoberfest in the fridge - so whatever you prefer.

 

[callofcthulhu]

Social Justice? I'm an "Old White Guy" so I pretty much get blamed for anything bad these days.

See the cartoon on the previous page.

II'm sure you've never once chuckled at a joke at the expense of those believers in the gods you're rocking against. Surely you're not that sort of moralizing hypocrite.

You cannot simply deny the existence of power structures. Humor does not exist in a vacuum. It IS funny to mock Christianity because it has been on the top of the totem pole for the past two thousand years. It can stand to be knocked down a few pegs. Mexicans have been scraping the bottom for the past five hundred years - precisely BECAUSE of that position of power Christianity was enjoying all that time. They've payed their dues. It's not funny to see someone knocked down who's already at the bottom.

It's the same reason why you throw someone a roast to mark an accomplishment, and not at their funeral.

Here's something to chew on:
"Racism" originates from the heart and mind of the person performing the act.
"Offensiveness" originates from the heart and mind of the person witnessing the act.

I am never racist. I find it reprehensible. Being offended, well, that's up to you.

No, THIS attitude is the crux of the problem - it is the definition of privilege. You would also do well to reference the cartoon I posted, it demonstrates why intent alone is not sufficient to escape culpability.

A white southerner in the 60's might insist that he finds racism reprehensible even as he moves his children out of a desegregating school. Today we would recognize that as an inherently racist act, but his awareness of the term is limited by his time and place. You need not be so limited - as we have already dismantled the mechanical racism in our culture (institutional programs such as segregation) we are currently battling down the much more obscure enemy of systemic racism (the meta-processes by which minorities are still being oppressed).

Your life is a boat adrift on an ocean, you can be forgiven for not realizing the myriad invisible currents that determine your course. But to continue pleading ignorance when those invisible currents are pointed out to you, you've now crossed the line to willful ignorance. Stop and add up all the ways your socio-economic status has been impacted by your whiteness. If your answer is any flavor of "it wasn't," then that's how you know you have white privilege. Because the simple fact of the matter is that every other minority will have a long and detailed answer to that question. Still believe lack of intent equals lack of harm?

You may have done nothing yourself to subjugate native Mexicans, you may not have personally infected anyone with small pox, you may not have cheated any sharecroppers on their day's wages. But whether you realize it or not, your entire life has been defined by the ways you have benefited from those who did. No one's asking for reparations, no one's even asking for an apology. They're just asking you to take a step back from yourself, show a little humility, and to skip the part where you salt the wounds your fathers left.

 

[Deleted member 269102]

Good. You can join me in a glass of wine and some intelligent discussion when you get there. I'm wiring up a new project on the kitchen table.

*knucks*

I'm handy with a soldering iron and a multi-meter too

 

[jlh60]

Amazing how ignorant some people can be. I really believe that there is a significant portion of the population that would prefer we resumed the social norms of 100 years ago.

100 hundred years ago a white man wearing a Mariachi costume probably would have been tarred and feathered.
Nowadays most people would just think he's in a Mariachi band or going to a costume party.

 

[SunnBass]

So, in fact, you're saying I can't own or play one of these???
Guitarron

Because its directly associated with specific cultures of which I'm not a member.
Come on, "Cultural Appropriation" - loose the feel good PC lingo and say what you really mean. Chances are I'd probably agree with you but I'm so sick of this PC phrase creation game that attempts to categorize people into evil little groups.

It's not "feel good PC lingo", It's actually a thing.

Cultural appropriation is a sociological concept which views the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture as a largely negative phenomenon.

It does several things;

• It Trivializes Violent Historical Oppression
• It Lets People Show Love for the Culture, But Remain Prejudiced Against Its People
• It Makes Things ‘Cool’ for White People – But ‘Too Ethnic’ for People of Color
• It Lets Privileged People Profit from Oppressed People’s Labor
• It Lets Some People Get Rewarded for Things the Creators Never Got Credit For
• It Spreads Mass Lies About Marginalized Cultures
• It Perpetuates Racist Stereotypes
• White People Can Freely Do What People of Color Were Actively Punished for Doing
• It Prioritizes the Feelings of Privileged People Over Justice for Marginalized People

Like, blackface for example.
Or sombreros, and moustaches.
Or Mario and Luigi.
Simple concept.

 

[40Hz]

*knucks*

I'm handy with a soldering iron and a multi-meter too

Figured as much. Grab a drink, a take a chair and check this out...

 

[SunnBass]

As a social justice scholar who studies gender, sexuality, race, and class I can say in no uncertain terms that dressing up as a mariachi band is racist. There are a million other ways you can go to put together a band costume without resorting to essentializing an entire culture to one stereotype. Someone mentioned in a post that context is important, but I have to disagree. There is no time when it is okay to indiscriminately appropriate aspects of another culture in a disrespectful manner because you think its funny: a lesson that was learned a little too late for certain college fraternities who have been excoriated nationally for throwing Bloods and Crips, USA vs Mexico, and Colonial Bros and Nava-Hos parties. Whenever people don cherry picked signifiers of other cultures, all it ends up doing is illustrating white privilege and dominance by turning other cultures into caricatures.

Regardless of any of what I said above, I think the fact that you are uncomfortable with the idea is a pretty good indicator that you should do something else.

This x100

 

[matante]

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but since the OP was asking for opinions from Mexicans, I'll chime in. There is absolutely nothing racist or offensive about you guys dressing as mariachis, or wearing moustaches, or having a piñata on stage.

As a social justice scholar who studies gender, sexuality, race, and class I can say in no uncertain terms that dressing up as a mariachi band is racist. There are a million other ways you can go to put together a band costume without resorting to essentializing an entire culture to one stereotype. Someone mentioned in a post that context is important, but I have to disagree. There is no time when it is okay to indiscriminately appropriate aspects of another culture in a disrespectful manner because you think its funny: a lesson that was learned a little too late for certain college fraternities who have been excoriated nationally for throwing Bloods and Crips, USA vs Mexico, and Colonial Bros and Nava-Hos parties. Whenever people don cherry picked signifiers of other cultures, all it ends up doing is illustrating white privilege and dominance by turning other cultures into caricatures.

Regardless of any of what I said above, I think the fact that you are uncomfortable with the idea is a pretty good indicator that you should do something else.

Nonsense.

Because neither the fake mustaches or the pinatas have anything to do with mariachis. They are just Mexican stereotypes. And yes, Mexicans are often looked down on in this country. Make it mariachi musicians rather than cheap Mexican stereotype and IMO you are fine.

I did a google image search for mariachi bands, and looking at the first three photos, under a quarter of the musicians were wearing them.

True, but we recognize the stereotype. It's not offensive. Watch the Mexico football team play and you will see Mexico fans in the stadium wearing big sombreros and big fake moustaches.

Again, the problem is not the costume, it's the pinatas and mustaches, especially together.

It's true that with the piñatas and moustaches the costume changes from mariachi to Mexican stereotype but that still doesn't make it offensive.

 

[bongostealth]

One thing I have learned over the years is that there will always be somebody to get offended at something. There's just no avoiding it and there's no pleasing everyone.

 

[Menorahman]

Right then. I'll put down my bass and get back to the kitchen.

Yup, that is exactly what I meant.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

So what should all the white folks who play in Mariachi bands around here wear? Surely they're offensive for dressing the part.

 

[GregT]

I am a white guy who happens to think a lot of the Mexican music is really great. I don't know what they are saying, but I don't care. The tuba bass is so cool on some songs. As far as the rest of all this goes, I am not so easily offended, and I can understand when someone is doing something to be offensive or not. When I was a kid, Halloween was for being something you weren't in reality. If I ever dressed up as a Mariachi musician, I would be doing it in honor of them. Besides, how can anything be negative about such a rich musical heritage? Don't get it. Don't bother to explain it to me either. Mariachi bands rock. If I had been born Mexican, I'd be that guy with the biggest guitar!

 

[Frank77]

I read the replies on this page and all I can say is "Holy crap, people." It's a mariachi outfit, for Pete's sake.

 

[Menorahman]

I love the social justice warriors ignoring the actual hispanics coming in here and saying they wouldn't be offended.

"NO don't you GET IT? You should be offended because I say so! You are unable to form views on your own because you are a downtrodden minority who needs saving!"

 

[Zooberwerx]

I had no problem with the Frito Bandito...I have no problem with a Mariachi band. Now, let's all sing along!

"One-ton-tomato....
I'll eat a one-ton-tomato...
One-ton-tomaaaaaaaaato....
I'll eat a one-ton-tomato"

You're welcome.

Riis

 

[Stranger Danger]

100 hundred years ago a white man wearing a Mariachi costume probably would have been tarred and feathered.
Nowadays most people would just think he's in a Mariachi band or going to a costume party.

Amos and Andy would disagree

 

[callofcthulhu]

Sometimes. Possibly more likely. But not necessarily always.

But again, I'm missing your point I think.

This is TalkBass - not some overly self-conscious "PC" campus environment where you can put on your high hat and claim an absolute higher morality without fear of being challenged.

The point is, he's not putting on a "high hat," he's putting on 6+ years of in depth study. Of course he should be challenged - everyone and everything should be challenged - but you do not nullify his points merely by challenging them.

You wouldn't go up to a physics professor and insist that just because of all his highfalutin booklernin he can't presuppose to preach the gospel truth about gravity. Why I've seen water flow uphill at the Mystery Spot! Explain that!

I understand that YOUR point was your incredulity at the existence of the social sciences themselves. But again, Asimov's response would be that your incredulity is somewhat meaningless compared to the mountain of human endeavors that have been carried out in their pursuit. You can't disprove the pyramids by raising your eyebrows.

By all means, challenge the social sciences. Hell, go out and prove that they shouldn't be considered sciences in the first place. But you're not going to do it in a paragraph, and I think your half-cocked eyebrow will be awfully tired before your done.