Official Barefaced Bass Cab Club

[lomo]

Anything below 40 or 45Hz is "not helpful" for anything I play on BEADG 5ers. I use the HPF on my D800+ or cut at 30Hz on my Walkabout. The B fundamental is overrated by some, methinks.

 

[MartinB]

The official word on HPFs (from another thread):

I'm generally not keen on customers using high-pass filters with our Gen 3 cabs because often they're set at too high a frequency which loses you useful LF output and decreases thermal power handling (by overly reducing cone excursion - and cone excursion is a key factor in cooling the voice coils in our drivers by pumping hot air out of the motor and sucking cool air in).

It depends on the filter slope and knee but around 30Hz is good. Up towards 40Hz is ok for SM/SC/ST but not for BB2/BT2/Two10/Six10. 50Hz is definitely too high for all of them.

 

[anton72]

The official word on HPFs (from another thread):

Thanks for sharing this reminder!

 

[mcnach]

An Ampeg SVT and 810 sounds fantastic at any volume, especially with a 5 string bass. The 810 doesn't go below 40hz. So how does a 5 string bass sound so good?

As some guys are posting, they are using HPF's to cut their sound at 50hz and 60 hz. That's not even low enough for the fundamental of the E string.

As long as you are generating the harmonics and overtones of the note you don't actually need the fundamental to get a fantastic bass sound.

Indeed, it also surprised me when I first heard that... but it works. It turns out that the deep low B sounds (and often low E) we are used to hearing are not necessarily us hearing the fundamental note, but hearing the harmonics generated and the brain combining them to make us thing we hear the lower note.

That's exactly how church organs are able to generate very low bass sounds using smaller pipes than would be required to produce the fundamental notes themselves alone. I found this ugly looking but short and informative page about it. I hope it helps a bit:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[mcnach]

The official word on HPFs (from another thread):

Thanks! and that... sucks. In particular this:

It depends on the filter slope and knee but around 30Hz is good. Up towards 40Hz is ok for SM/SC/ST but not for BB2/BT2/Two10/Six10. 50Hz is definitely too high for all of them.

which means that the way I like to use the HPF on my Mesa D800+ is reducing the cooling needed for my pair of Two10 cabs. Now, I don't often have to push them hard... but now I know if I ever do I'd better be careful to not go crazy or lower the HPF frequency.
Hmmm.

 

[peterpalmieri]

The official word on HPFs (from another thread):

That is actually very odd and doesn't make these cabs as appealing as I thought.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

That is actually very odd and doesn't make these cabs as appealing as I thought.

Until you play through one...

 

[Tim1]

That is actually very odd and doesn't make these cabs as appealing as I thought.

Come on everyone, don't over-react. I have only ever heard of one BF speaker having a problem. Let's keep things in perspective and not dissect too closely every syllable Alex utters.

 

[alexclaber]

In one word, AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!

Is it possible to say ANYTHING on here without it being misinterpreted by someone?

In short, do whatever you want with high pass filters. But if you're using BIG power, then don't expect a high pass filter set at upwards of 50Hz to gain you extra headroom. I wrote that original statement because of people using STEEP high pass filters with very powerful power amps and doing things that compromised both their tone and output and increased the change of driver failure (which is super low anyway).

So now we've got people using less steep adjustable high pass filters as part of their tone shaping, like this:

Thanks! and that... sucks. In particular this:

which means that the way I like to use the HPF on my Mesa D800+ is reducing the cooling needed for my pair of Two10 cabs. Now, I don't often have to push them hard... but now I know if I ever do I'd better be careful to not go crazy or lower the HPF frequency.
Hmmm.

It's fine, it doesn't matter. It's STEEP high pass filters and VERY POWERFUL amps. If your amp is the size of a hardback book (regardless of what the power rating is) then it isn't very powerful. These adjustable high pass filters should be treated as part of your EQ - do whatever sounds good with them. They're very different beasts to the steeper filters found on good PA power amps.

That is actually very odd and doesn't make these cabs as appealing as I thought.

Hopefully that clears things up. It isn't very odd at all, it's the same for all loudspeakers - put a steep highpass filter on them at too high a frequency and thus reduce their excursion too much and you reduce their ability to cool themselves. It's only a issue with BIG POWER and very steep filters.

Come on everyone, don't over-react. I have only ever heard of one BF speaker having a problem. Let's keep things in perspective and not dissect too closely every syllable Alex utters.

Thank you! There's thousands of 12XN and 10CR drivers out there being gigged heavily since 2013. I think in total we've had five 12XN blown and three 10CR. Every single 12XN failure happened with 1000W+ amps combined with heavy FX use. I'd say that's pretty good going!

 

[peterpalmieri]

In one word, AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!

Is it possible to say ANYTHING on here without it being misinterpreted by someone?

In short, do whatever you want with high pass filters. But if you're using BIG power, then don't expect a high pass filter set at upwards of 50Hz to gain you extra headroom. I wrote that original statement because of people using STEEP high pass filters with very powerful power amps and doing things that compromised both their tone and output and increased the change of driver failure (which is super low anyway).

So now we've got people using less steep adjustable high pass filters as part of their tone shaping, like this:



It's fine, it doesn't matter. It's STEEP high pass filters and VERY POWERFUL amps. If your amp is the size of a hardback book (regardless of what the power rating is) then it isn't very powerful. These adjustable high pass filters should be treated as part of your EQ - do whatever sounds good with them. They're very different beasts to the steeper filters found on good PA power amps.



Hopefully that clears things up. It isn't very odd at all, it's the same for all loudspeakers - put a steep highpass filter on them at too high a frequency and thus reduce their excursion too much and you reduce their ability to cool themselves. It's only a issue with BIG POWER and very steep filters.



Thank you! There's thousands of 12XN and 10CR drivers out there being gigged heavily since 2013. I think in total we've had five 12XN blown and three 10CR. Every single 12XN failure happened with 1000W+ amps combined with heavy FX use. I'd say that's pretty good going!

Thank you it does clear things up. I've been using a HPFs effectively for 15 years as are many folks that play DB. It is also very effective with EB in creating a very clean stage volume and eliminating the woof.

The reason I said it was very odd because it seemed to be more then a blanket statement as presented by someone else. Beside the fact that it was presented or supported as a positive attribute.

 

[alexclaber]

The reason I said it was very odd because it seemed to be more then a blanket statement as presented by someone else. Beside the fact that it was presented or supported as a positive attribute.

There's nothing like quoting things out of context for causing confusion. It feels like everything I write nowadays has to be surrounded by qualifiers and caveats! ;-)

Not needing a HPF is a good thing though - I understand the use with acoustic instruments to deal with feedback. But when you design cabs to (A) handle a ton of power in the lows and (B) have excellent transient response in the lows, then you realise that the problem with very deep lows is not the very deep lows, it's them being done badly and negatively affecting the rest of your sound.

 

[anton72]

There's nothing like quoting things out of context for causing confusion. It feels like everything I write nowadays has to be surrounded by qualifiers and caveats! ;-)

Not needing a HPF is a good thing though - I understand the use with acoustic instruments to deal with feedback. But when you design cabs to (A) handle a ton of power in the lows and (B) have excellent transient response in the lows, then you realise that the problem with very deep lows is not the very deep lows, it's them being done badly and negatively affecting the rest of your sound.

Alex, thank you for chiming in. It acutally started with my question "should I rather use Two10/Four10 than SM/SC for my 5 string bass as the low B frequency is 31 Hz whereas both SM and SC are rated 37 Hz in lows and Two10 can go down to 30 Hz." What is your opinion as a builder of these cabs?

 

[MartinB]

There's nothing like quoting things out of context for causing confusion. It feels like everything I write nowadays has to be surrounded by qualifiers and caveats! ;-)

There was already confusion. Now it's all cleared up. Mission accomplished!

 

[alexclaber]

Alex, thank you for chiming in. It acutally started with my question "should I rather use Two10/Four10 than SM/SC for my 5 string bass as the low B frequency is 31 Hz whereas both SM and SC are rated 37 Hz in lows and Two10 can go down to 30 Hz." What is your opinion as a builder of these cabs?

Every Barefaced cab works very well (better than most) with the low B on 5/6+ string basses. If you're going a bit lower than that, say downtuned to A, then you'll be fine. Once you get down to low F# or lower then I'd lean towards the BB2 or BT2 rather than the SM, SC or ST. But even with low F# the SM/SC/ST will outperform most cabs.

With the 10CR models, because they use the Hybrid Resonator rather than a tuned port, they're fine with anything. They go lower but start rolling off higher than the 12XN models, so you're not comparing like with like.

The decision regarding 12XN vs 10CR models should be solely due to the tone you're after, and the mids and highs are the most important part of that - whichever you choose, the lows will be good.

When you play 7th fret E-string B you hear: 62, 124, 186, 248, 310, 372, 434, 496Hz etc (that's all the harmonics up to the mid mids).

When you play open low B you hear: 31, 62, 93, 124, 155, 186, 217, 248, 279, 310, 341, 372, 403, 434, 465, 496Hz etc (all the harmonics up the mid mids).

See the difference? It isn't just the 31Hz!

It's common for BIG touring PA subwoofers to be highpassed at 35Hz for maximum ouput and durability, whilst still sounding massive and thunderous, so they'll have negligible output below that point.

 

[tallboybass]

Ok, while we're clearing things up, @alexclaber...I have acquired one each of your 3 single 12" cabs. SM, SC, & BBII. If I wanted to use 2 of those together, which would be the best pair to use, and why?

 

[svtb15]

I have never liked HPF on bass for gigs... In sessions YES. They may HPF for a mix. But I prefer to select a cab and EQ curve and not use HPF... My Fave rig and still is my Fave is my old API preamp into my Crown. ... I understand why some people do like a HPF.. ... But some people set them so HIGH. I wonder Why didn't they just take up playing the Banjo instead !

In one word, AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!

Is it possible to say ANYTHING on here without it being misinterpreted by someone?

In short, do whatever you want with high pass filters. But if you're using BIG power, then don't expect a high pass filter set at upwards of 50Hz to gain you extra headroom. I wrote that original statement because of people using STEEP high pass filters with very powerful power amps and doing things that compromised both their tone and output and increased the change of driver failure (which is super low anyway).

So now we've got people using less steep adjustable high pass filters as part of their tone shaping, like this:



It's fine, it doesn't matter. It's STEEP high pass filters and VERY POWERFUL amps. If your amp is the size of a hardback book (regardless of what the power rating is) then it isn't very powerful. These adjustable high pass filters should be treated as part of your EQ - do whatever sounds good with them. They're very different beasts to the steeper filters found on good PA power amps.



Hopefully that clears things up. It isn't very odd at all, it's the same for all loudspeakers - put a steep highpass filter on them at too high a frequency and thus reduce their excursion too much and you reduce their ability to cool themselves. It's only a issue with BIG POWER and very steep filters.



Thank you! There's thousands of 12XN and 10CR drivers out there being gigged heavily since 2013. I think in total we've had five 12XN blown and three 10CR. Every single 12XN failure happened with 1000W+ amps combined with heavy FX use. I'd say that's pretty good going!

 

[mcnach]

In one word, AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!

Is it possible to say ANYTHING on here without it being misinterpreted by someone?

In short, do whatever you want with high pass filters. But if you're using BIG power, then don't expect a high pass filter set at upwards of 50Hz to gain you extra headroom. I wrote that original statement because of people using STEEP high pass filters with very powerful power amps and doing things that compromised both their tone and output and increased the change of driver failure (which is super low anyway).

So now we've got people using less steep adjustable high pass filters as part of their tone shaping, like this:



It's fine, it doesn't matter. It's STEEP high pass filters and VERY POWERFUL amps. If your amp is the size of a hardback book (regardless of what the power rating is) then it isn't very powerful. These adjustable high pass filters should be treated as part of your EQ - do whatever sounds good with them. They're very different beasts to the steeper filters found on good PA power amps.



Hopefully that clears things up. It isn't very odd at all, it's the same for all loudspeakers - put a steep highpass filter on them at too high a frequency and thus reduce their excursion too much and you reduce their ability to cool themselves. It's only a issue with BIG POWER and very steep filters.



Thank you! There's thousands of 12XN and 10CR drivers out there being gigged heavily since 2013. I think in total we've had five 12XN blown and three 10CR. Every single 12XN failure happened with 1000W+ amps combined with heavy FX use. I'd say that's pretty good going!

Thank you for the clarification, Alex. I got a little worried there

 

[Plutonium244]

I've used HPF with my Barefaced cabs. They did not melt into a puddle of tolex and neodymium.

 

[monsterthompson]

I've used HPF with my Barefaced cabs. They did not melt into a puddle of tolex and neodynium.

Don't play any notes with fundamentals over 100 Hz. It's like pass filtering the primitive way.

 

[Lowendtech]

Don't play any notes with fundamentals over 100 Hz. It's like pass filtering the primitive way.