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Oh yeah, the English are sooo educated.
- Thread starter Deluge Of Sound
- Start date
But for this to happen, Hitler would have had to have been a pragmatist - which he clearly was not. He had a marriage of convenience with Stalin until it suited his timetable to abandon it, but his plan was always to defeat Britain so that there would not be an enemy at his back when he invaded Russia. Invading Russia was always his ultimate goal.
The Pacific is even bigger than the Atlantic.
Depends how you look at it. Paris to Miami is 4700 miles, Tokyo to LA roughly 5000 miles. I'm not sure which would be shorter actually, Japan to Alaska or Paris/New York.
Anyway, I got what I came for. My work here is done
How are you going to build airfields while we're bombing the crap out of you? Where are your fuel and bombs coming from? Sorry, they're at the bottom of the Pacific. You really should have spent more money on aircraft carriers and less on rockets.
I imagine the Canadians are itching for a fight at this point as well. You really don't want to fight a bunch of Canucks in Alaska. Seriously.
But the Japanese never intended to invade the US. They wanted control of South East Asia and wanted America to stay out of it. The whole point of Pearl Harbour was to cripple the US fleet for long enough to make Japan's hold on the East unbreakable. Their mistake was not finding the carriers and not being aware of how their action would allow Churchill and Roosevelt to pull America fully into WWII.
Wrong. The japanese planes that bombed pearl harbor barely made it to hawaii. To take it the west coast would have been a huge production. The would have needed to take over Hawaii. Stage there, then hit the west coast, however, Hawaii is closer to Mexico than San Diego, or southern Californa.
HOF yet?
Ohhhhh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK,
I sleep all night and I work all day...
...except when I'm chainsawing Nazis.
I think you're wrong on all but the last of those points - so at first Stalin had a pact with Hitler and it was the fact that USSR stayed out, that allowed the Nazis to sweep through Europe.
But then the big turning point of the mainland war, was when Hitler over-reached himself, took on the USSR at the height of the Russian Winter and lost huge numbers of troops - nothing to do with the US!
I'll give you Japan - but Europe was already decided before the US entered the war!
All that the US troops did was get to Berlin in time to divide up the spoils, start the Cold war and charge Britain huge amounts of money - which we only finished paying off, last year! So now at last, we owe you nothing!
Bruce,
A couple of points if I may ... but with a bit of background.
First, I am a retired U.S. Army officer. I have served around the world, to include working with our NATO allies; in Iraq (twice); off the cost of Afghanistan on a U.S. Navy ship; in Korea; and finally in Desert Shield/Storm.
Second, my bachelor's degree is in History. Specifically, 20th Century American and European military history. I've read and studied military history all my life, and participated in the making of some of it as well.
There is no doubt, as has been noted, that the defeat of the Axis powers required a united, combined effort. Every nation involved participated in securing the ultimate victory - some more than others (the list of nations that actually were on the side of the allies can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II.
This being said, the sentiment that we Americans "did nothing" or contributed to the ultimate victory in WWII in a smaller fashion than our Allies is not only untrue, but unfair.
I'd point out a few things America did prior to our entry into the war.
Destroyers for Bases Agreement - this was an arrangement by which the US transferred 50 destroyers to the Royal Navy and the Royal Canadian Navy in exchange for bases in Newfoundland and the Caribbean. You may recall at the time Britain's and Canada's shipping was subject to a very real and effective U-Boat campaign by the Germans. The transfer of these destroyers was a very real and significant contribution to the continued existence of England in that it helped your government and navy to secure sea lanes to and from the British Isles. Indeed, Winston Churchill once commented that the only thing that ever really worried him during the war was the U-Boat threat.
Lend Lease - this was an act passed by our Congress in March 1941. Essentially, the U.S. ended up shipping a total of $50.1 billion (equivalent to nearly $700 billion at 2007 prices) worth of supplies to Britain ($31.4 billion) , the Soviet Union ($11.3 billion), France ($3.2 billion) and China ($1.6 billion). Reverse Lend Lease comprised services (like rent on air bases) that went to the U.S. It totaled $7.8 billion, of which $6.8 billion came from the British and the Commonwealth. Apart from that, there were no repayments of supplies that arrived before the termination date, the terms of the agreement providing for their return or destruction. (Supplies after that date were sold to Britain at a discount, for £1,075 million, using long-term loans from the U.S.). Some have argued that this was an attempt to bolster France, Britain, etc. against Nazi Germany and decrease the possibility that America would have to enter the war. Others have asserted that FDR knew we would be involved sooner or later, and that it was in our interest to support those fighting Hitler. In any event there is no doubt that America shipped a lot of things that enabled Britain, France, China, and the Soviet Union, at least partly, to continue the fight against the Axis powers. The debt that you refer to above is in fact the lend-lease debt, which was repaid over 50 years at 2%, a very low rate I might add. Also, much of the supplies and equipment sent to your country were purchased at 10% on the dollar by your government, a sweetheart deal if there ever was one in such matters.
Eagle Squadrons - these were squadrons of American volunteer pilots who served in the RAF. The first squadron (No. 71) formed in September, 1940 during the Battle of Britain - it became operational early in 1941, well before Pearl Harbor. 77 American members of the Eagle Squadrons were killed in action.
BTW, the Nazi invasion of Russia (Operation Barbarossa) began on June 22, 1941, not at the "height of the Russian winter" as you assert. The German Army's troubles began in the fall, as the weather began to change and their logistical tail became longer and longer.
That the Soviets fought on the Eastern Front by themselves is undisputed. That our (and by that I mean US, British, French, etc.) contributions elsewhere siphoned off German forces that could have been used against the Soviets is also undisputed. British, French, American, etc. forces fighting in Italy, Sicily, North Africa and later in France and the Low Countries undoubtedly forced Hitler to commit forces he'd been previously able to use against Russia against Allied forces in the west, diminishing German combat power in the east. As German losses mounted and their available manpower pool decreased, this took on a critical role, I would argue, in their fight in the East. The Germans, who had egregiously underestimated the number of available Soviet troops, simply didn't have the resources to counter such a threat. Transferring troops from the East to the West to meet threats there made, I humbly submit, the collapse of the Germans on the Eastern Front occur that much quicker.
Your assertion that US forces only arrived in Berlin so that we could "divide up the spoils and start the Cold War" is, I submit, specious. It conveniently ignores the documented fact that along with our allies, we'd been fighting our way all across western Europe since landing at Normandy on June 6, 1944, and earlier than that in Italy, Sicily, North Africa and elsewhere. Our arrival in Berlin as an occupying power (along with the French, British, and Soviets) had nothing to do with dividing up spoils or starting the Cold War (that would come later in the years to come as it became clear that the Soviets were not going to allow territory they occupied during their fight against the Germans revert to pre-war governance and administration). It had everything to do, along with our allies, of administering a country which under the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions we now had a responsibility to administer. Also, the dividing up of Germany into occupation zones (as well as the occupation of Berlin by the U.S., France, Britain and the USSR) had been decided by Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin well before the end of the war at the Yalta Conference in February, 1945
I'd argue that by December, 1941, the war in Europe was not necessarily decided. The Germans were at the gates of Moscow, controlled the vast majority of the continent of Europe, and the Afrika Korps was having it's way with Commonwealth forces in North Africa. There was no guarantee at the time that Britain, the Soviet Union, and other nations allied with them would prevail. Was the entry into the war by the United States the deciding factor? I've seen arguments both for and against that assertion.
There is no doubt, however, that our role as the "arsenal of democracy" played a huge part in enabling the victory which eventually ensued. If you don't believe me, go the Imperial War Museum if you haven't done so, and do a bit of research. You'll find lots of pictures of British forces using American designed and made equipment (jeeps, Sherman tanks, P-51 Mustang fighters, C-47 Dakota cargo aircraft, Douglas A-20 and North American B-25 Mitchell medium bombers, etc.). You'll also see some of it on display (it's a very fascinating place, BTW - I spent a whole day there, and could easily have spent several more without seeing all it has to offer the visitor). Though many Russians are loathe to admit it, our aid helped them as well (we shipped countless trucks, jeeps, locomotives, aircraft etc. to them).
Finally, since you reside in Britain, I'd recommend a trip via the Chunnel or Channel Ferry to France. Once there, go to Normandy and visit the American cemetary there. Or go to Hamm, Luxemburg, where you will find another American cemetary. Both are filled with row upon row of white crosses and Stars of David, marking the final resting place of Americans who fought, along with their allies, to make sure that a democratic and free Europe remained a reality, not a footnote to history.
My two cents,
Alan
With all due respect, that's more like a buck fifty.
You're right though, but there tends to be a knee-jerk reaction from Europeans when (some) Americans claim WWII started in 1942. (That's a general thing though, not a reflection on this specific thread).
