Ohms and Watts. Sorry. Really sorry.

[JimmyM]

So what do we call this then: an inefficient/high-power handling cabinet being driven by a low-powered amp that clips before it produces usable volume with that speaker?

Yes -there is such a thing as underpowering. Having an amp with less power than you need for certain gigs is a performance limitation. Having too much amp power is like having a car with a big engine - most of the time you don't need it; but when you want or need to go fast, there is no substitute for power.

I think both of you guys are smart enough to realize that this isn't the definition of "underpowering" that the OP was referring to.

 

[Lowendtech]

Everyone has experienced real serial daisy chaining - old fashioned xmas tree lights, whereas new led xmas tree lights are parallel daisy chaining - I expect xmas lights forums get confused by this too!

DMX lights daisy chain, and they can be parallel or even onto-isolated so neither series or parallel

 

[Mark Reccord]

Actual daisy chain:

I can't post what I think of when I hear the term daisy chain here.

Let's simplify it.
You have an Eden WT500 and two 8 ohm cabs.
It has a Left and a Right Power Amp Output. These can each handle a 4ohm load @250W.
And a Bridged output. This can only handle an 8 ohm load but @500w.
Plug one cab in the Right channel.
Plug the other cab into the Left channel.
Each 8 ohm cab cab will get about 175 watts.
Make sure the Bridged Button on the front of the amp is Disengaged. (Led off).
Make sure the Balance knob is at 12:00.
You're now finished your setup.

OR

If you have a good 8 ohm 410 or another multi driver cab that'll handle over 500w (DNA, DNS410 in my case), plug it into the Bridged Output and Engage the Bridge Button (Led On) on the front of the amp.
I had this setup for a few years and it was plenty loud.

Hope this helps clear the thought process.

Just a clarification on something I said earlier on the off chance it wasn't clear: In the case of a stereo amp like the OP's connecting one cabinet to the left output and one cabinet to the right output is definitely not electrically equivalent to "daisy-chaining" the two cabinets off either the left or the right outputs.

 

[bassistheplaceofcourse]

I think both of you guys are smart enough to realize that this isn't the definition of "underpowering" that the OP was referring to.

Both of those guys were closer to what I was referring to than what most people on this thread seem to think I was referring to. Closer than the folk who felt the need to point out that speakers don't explode when the volume knob is turned to zero. My mistake was using a word that I was unaware had an unfortunate history here on talkbass...

 

[JimmyM]

Both of those guys were closer to what I was referring to than what most people on this thread seem to think I was referring to. Closer than the folk who felt the need to point out that speakers don't explode when the volume knob is turned to zero. My mistake was using a word that I was unaware had an unfortunate history here on talkbass...

OK then, well if you have enough power to do the job, then it's not underpowering

 

[Pops OB]

I love the smell of napalm in the morning! It smells like... victory.

 

[Mark Reccord]

So what do we call this then: an inefficient/high-power handling cabinet being driven by a low-powered amp that clips before it produces usable volume with that speaker?

Yes -there is such a thing as underpowering. Having an amp with less power than you need for certain gigs is a performance limitation. Having too much amp power is like having a car with a big engine - most of the time you don't need it; but when you want or need to go fast, there is no substitute for power.

Continuing with that automotive analogy, driving a cabinet with an amp that can produce more power than the cab can handle is like having a car with enough power to go 150MPH but putting S-rated (112MPH) tires on it. Most of the time that will be fine but if you actually get the car up past 112MPH you risk something bad happening.

Both of those guys were closer to what I was referring to than what most people on this thread seem to think I was referring to. Closer than the folk who felt the need to point out that speakers don't explode when the volume knob is turned to zero. My mistake was using a word that I was unaware had an unfortunate history here on talkbass...

Ah, that's just TB being TB-ish. But yeah, "underpowering" is definitely one of the Amps forum's trigger words and long semantic/pedantic/philosophical debates are par for the course.

 

[Al Kraft]

Sound is not part of the EM (electro-magnetic) spectrum. Sound is a pressure wave, thus the need for a medium of propagation. EM waves are radio waves, micro waves, infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, on up through X-rays.

I agree 100% and actually thought I had said that, albeit I may not have chosen my words as precisely as I could have...in any event, that's what I meant when I wrote: "typically "sound" is something differentiated from the rest of the EM spectrum as "requiring a medium through which to propagate". I think my use of the word "rest" was a poor choice. There are obviously some other some other significant differences like speed of propagation, wave characteristics, etc.

 

[HolmeBass]

I agree 100% and actually thought I had said that, albeit I may not have chosen my words as precisely as I could have...in any event, that's what I meant when I wrote: "typically "sound" is something differentiated from the rest of the EM spectrum as "requiring a medium through which to propagate". I think my use of the word "rest" was a poor choice. There are obviously some other some other significant differences like speed of propagation, wave characteristics, etc.

Well, the biggest difference is that sound and EM waves are two entirely different physical phenomena. Sound waves are compression waves of small pressure differences that propagate through a continuous medium. Electromagnetic waves are three-dimensional waves (until polarized?) of alternating bound electric and magnetic fields. They are completely unrelated. Sound has more (much more) in common with ripples on the surface of water than with EM waves.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Yes -there is such a thing as underpowering. Having an amp with less power than you need for certain gigs is a performance limitation.

That's not underpowering a cabinet, though. That's just not having enough rig for the gig; the loudspeaker does not define how much power you should use.

 

[Al Kraft]

Well, the biggest difference is that sound and EM waves are two entirely different physical phenomena. Sound waves are compression waves of small pressure differences that propagate through a continuous medium. Electromagnetic waves are three-dimensional waves (until polarized?) of alternating bound electric and magnetic fields. They are completely unrelated. Sound has more (much more) in common with ripples on the surface of water than with EM waves.

Have worked with advanced naval aviation related sensor systems (including RADAR, LIDAR, SONAR and IR systems) for close to 40 years I couldn't agree more. Although I wouldn't characterize them as "two entirely different physical phenomena" simply from the standpoint that they both involve the propagation of energy. Admittedly one relies on a medium that is integral to that propagation and the other not only doesn't require a medium, but occasionally finds a medium to be disruptive.

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

I think both of you guys are smart enough to realize that this isn't the definition of "underpowering" that the OP was referring to.

I agree completely...at least on the part about me being smart! drool No really, for sure, it was a time to say "there's no such thing as under-powering cabs". I was just offering a counterpoint to the absoluteness of those statements.... you know, alternative facts!

 

[Al Kraft]

Closer than the folk who felt the need to point out that speakers don't explode when the volume knob is turned to zero.

That was me and no offense was intended...I was exaggerating to reinforce a point. For the record though I can see where people might wonder about whether it is essential that amp and cab specs match precisely. It is in fact a logical question if someone who is not knowledgeable in electricity or electronics had an appliance or electronic device they owned damaged by an under-voltage (and it happens), which could be construed by that person as analogous to a an "insufficient power" condition.

 

[JimmyM]

I agree completely...at least on the part about me being smart! drool No really, for sure, it was a time to say "there's no such thing as under-powering cabs". I was just offering a counterpoint to the absoluteness of those statements.... you know, alternative facts!

See Bob's reply for a better reply than mine

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

That's not underpowering a cabinet, though. That's just not having enough rig for the gig; the loudspeaker does not define how much power you should use.

See Bob's reply for a better reply than mine

Talkbass Maxim #42: only gigs can be under-powered.

 

[Downunderwonder]

That's not underpowering a cabinet, though. That's just not having enough rig for the gig; the loudspeaker does not define how much power you should use.

yet the speaker is pretty good at defining how much power you should NOT use.

 

[ThisBass]

Sound is not part of the EM (electro-magnetic) spectrum. Sound is a pressure wave, thus the need for a medium of propagation. EM waves are radio waves, micro waves, infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, on up through X-rays.

I'd equal the shot of a gun with a pressure wave, while sound (audio program material) is a way more complex process of deviations of air pressure.

 

[ThisBass]

Well, the biggest difference is that sound and EM waves are two entirely different physical phenomena. Sound waves are compression waves of small pressure differences that propagate through a continuous medium. Electromagnetic waves are three-dimensional waves (until polarized?) of alternating bound electric and magnetic fields. They are completely unrelated. Sound has more (much more) in common with ripples on the surface of water than with EM waves.

There are analogies to EM waves for sound waves.
Sound waves are essentially described by particle velocity and air pressure, which is in analogy to electrical and magnetical fields of EM waves. both can show real and complex parts.

 

[beans-on-toast]

There are analogies to EM waves for sound waves.
Sound waves are essentially described by particle velocity and air pressure, which is in analogy to electrical and magnetical fields of EM waves. both can show real and complex parts.

Yes, and for us to hear those sound waves, they have to be converted to electrical impulses and interpreted. Even the context of the conversation helps the brain correctly interpret what it hears. All very complicated.

 

[ThisBass]

Yes, and for us to hear those sound waves, they have to be converted to electrical impulses and interpreted. Even the context of the conversation helps the brain correctly interpret what it hears. All very complicated.

And way to often we (me myself) forget that EM waves and also acoustical waves act on the (so called) wave impedance.