Double Bass OK, HELP!

[pnchad]

I just got a new endpin but the shank is smaller than the original in diameter. I'll measure but I think the standard pin size is 3/8".

Anyway, now I have to either shim the hole or plug and redrill/ream. I think I will plug and redrill for a better fit. Need some spruce and a reamer now.

I also found another crack, this time in the back of the pegbox so that set me back gluing and clamping.

Finished making up spool clamps at least.

I'm tempted to go the whole 9 yards and try to reshape the flattened area of the top while I'm at it.

I know this is boring but I'm enjoying even the setbacks. The only downside is having to run the garage AC 24/7 to keep humidity down. Can you say $$$$.

 

[Bob Branstetter]

I just got a new endpin but the shank is smaller than the original in diameter. I'll measure but I think the standard pin size is 3/8".

Endpins are about as "standard" as basses are standard. I've got a dozen different new endpins in my endpin drawer and it would be hard to find 2 that have exactly the same size socket size and taper. 10mm (3/8") is one of most common steel rod sizes, but I don't know if I would be willing to call that the "standard" size. Suppliers of bass wheels frequently stock replacement shafts in 5/16", 3/8", 1/2" and 9/16" diameters to accomodate most of the common endpin sizes.

Reamers sold today usually have a 1/17 taper, but don't be too surprised if the endpin you buy has a socket taper that is somewhat different. You can ask, but I'm not sure that any supplier will absolutely guarantee the taper will be 1/17. Considering the high cost of buying a bass endpin reamer, it would probably make better financial sense to let your local luthiers install it for you (unless you plan to install lots of endpins in the future).

 

[robobass]

My V&G Dimensions:
Upper bout width: 52 cm;20.5”
Lower bout width: 67.5 cm;26.6”
Top length: 113.8 cm;44.8”
String length: 106.7 cm;42”
Rib depth upper/lower (including top/back thickness) 14.6/15.7 cm;5.7/6.2”
Bridge height: 6.66"

I know the bridge looks really high. My repair guy was concerned when I asked him to bring out the neck. He added just over a half inch, plus gave it a much thicker board. When I got the bass it had very little sound. I paid $2900. Now it really punches, and is also very bright. After 15 years, it has sagged slightly under the G foot, but not enough to worry me. A couple of center seam cleats on the back seem to have broken, though.
The top has several long cracks that have fortunately been well repaired. I’ve got one bad crack near an upper edge of the back, but the repair has held. The ribs are very thin, so I’ve had to repair some punches since I’ve owned it. The neck has no damage except for some scrapes on the ears.

How did I fake these photos? Photoshop is your friend! Wanna see my Ferrari?
Robobass

 

[pnchad]

Thanks for the info.

I was curious about the overstand and the neck angle. Mine was shimmed also but not just the board, the whole neck. They may have been trying the same thing to get more sound out of the little box but it might also be why the top flattened with too much down pressure.

I don't think I'll mess with the shim but if the tension is too much maybe I'll raise the saddle instead.

 

[Maaaven]

I did some research on Leroy Gieger.

Leroy F. Geiger was born in Grinnel, Iowa around 1900, and first worked in Chicago, Illinois starting in 1919. Geiger moved to Chicago and John (Johann) Hornsteiner (III) taught Leroy Geiger violin making at Wm. Lewis and Sons. The original name of the firm was Root and Lewis, and the business operated between 1874 and 1978. Studying makers in this school is best way to find information on Geiger.
John Hornsteiner (III) was born in Germany in 1863 and was taught violin making by Joseph Kriner, who worked from 1850 through 1859 in Landshut, Germany. John (III) was part of a long tradition of German violin makers that leads back to Georg Hornsteiner, who worked in Mittenwald as early as 1730. John (III) was the only violin maker in the Geiger clan to immigrate to the US. He worked in Chicago Illinois up to 1924. He is credited with 315+ instruments, and worked with many fine dealers.

Leroy Geiger worked along side Carl Becker at William Lewis and Sons from 1919 probably through WWII. Geiger moved to Los Angeles, most likely at the end of WWII.

Leroy Geiger authored "How to Make Your Own Violin", published by Ernst Heinrich Roth Company Inc. Cleveland, OH, published as a spiral bound book in 1963. It is Subtitled, “How To Make Your Own Violin. Step By Step Instructions, With Illustrations For Hobbyists, Amateurs and School Workshops”. This volume is now a prized antique which commands as much as $250 per copy. This work may have been published posthumously, as the 1963 publishing data come after the 1959 date of death. Auction records for Leroy Geiger instruments are not found, and the number of instruments in unknown.

The V&G connection was missing when I did this work.

The bass I looked at is essentially the same design as the
one pictured above. I have a snap in the camera or two.
This one was probably build in california, not chicago.

 

[pnchad]

Maaven, check it out! Google 'voit & geiger'. There is an eBay store by that name with the same logo as the label inside my 1938 bass. They seem to be a distributor of highend conventional camera equipment.

However, if you follow it, the owner states that 'my wife inherited a complete luthiers' shop which closed over 20 years ago'!

I never bothered to search the net but when I first got this bass I went to the local main library where they have all the violin maker's books as reference texts. I believe it was in the American Violin Makers book that I found V&G listed as makers in Chicago late 1800s to early 1900's. Now that I think about it I made a photocopy of the page but not sure where I put it. The description either said or I infered that one or both were immigrants from Germany and that one of them (Geiger??) continued working alone after their partnership. Maybe in California??

Anyway they were builders not just dealers and I think that this decendent just thought that the name/brand was cool for his photography business. I sent an email. Who knows?

 

[Bob Branstetter]

Leroy Geiger authored "How to Make Your Own Violin", published by Ernst Heinrich Roth Company Inc. Cleveland, OH, published as a spiral bound book in 1963. It is Subtitled, “How To Make Your Own Violin. Step By Step Instructions, With Illustrations For Hobbyists, Amateurs and School Workshops”. This volume is now a prized antique which commands as much as $250 per copy. This work may have been published posthumously, as the 1963 publishing data come after the 1959 date of death. Auction records for Leroy Geiger instruments are not found, and the number of instruments in unknown.

I own a (mint condition) copy of this book I got back in the 1960's. The "book" is actually a reprint of articles that were published in Popular Science or Popular Mechanics. As violin making books go, IMO, it is far from being one of the best. If you know anyone that wants to part with $250 for a copy, I'll sell them mine in a second.

 

[pnchad]

but doing internets searches. Here's the latest poop:

Voit & Geiger was a 'fine violin shop' in Chicago for some length of time at least as early as the 1920's. It is referenced in articles as catering to the local symphony players.

If you google Ships-NY2sept1922 you will find the manifest of the SS Mongolia sailing from Russia with German passengers - a female Geiger listed as 'housewife' and 4 Voits all in their 30s to 40. The 2 women Voits are also 'housewifes' but the men Anton & Albrecht are listed as 'violin makers'. August Geiger was already a naturalized American. Did she go back to the old country to recruit builders?

And, there is another book published by V&G about violin making on a rare bookseller's site in poor condition but only $22.50. So Bob keep yours - maybe one day???

And, I just found a violinist who plays an Albrecht Voit, 1931 Chicago violin.

This is fun!

 

[Bob Branstetter]

And, there is another book published by V&G about violin making on a rare bookseller's site in poor condition but only $22.50. So Bob keep yours - maybe one day???

It is amazing how much some people are willing to pay for a book that isn't particularly good and isn't even a hard cover. Maybe that helps explain why some of the really good 1st edition violin books that I bought back in the 60's and 70's are worth so much money now.

 

[pnchad]

on this DB Forum are conspicuous in their absence. I'd bet they're reading this thread from time to time.

But, therein lies the problem. I suppose my challenge of a certain someone who seems to literally dominate this forum, has intimidated the others. Are you giggling to yourselves behind the scenes??? Are you sooo certain in your dogma that you refuse to impart your knowledge??

Well, from correspondence with some, it is apparent that many younger enthusiasts have been chased from this site by the heavy handed condesension.

This is a shame since it is obviously a generational thing. It is a pity that small minds aren't able to realize that there is a NEXT generation and that the knowledge and experience NEEDS to be passed on, for the sake of the instrument's future.

All anyone expects is mutual respect and a patient tone. I'm sure that there are folks among the 'veterans' that have valuable first hand information. Where are you?

 

[pnchad]

The last post was NOT aimed at Bob (who has invaluable info for us), but towards 'the usual suspects' who roam this forum.

It's pretty petty that folks of that vintage and knowledge act like a high school clique. Kinda insulated and insecure behavior IMHO.

 

[pnchad]

of who built what, where....

These necks all seem very similar and pretty unique. Maybe they originated in Europe and the boxes were built here since the thin ribs and skin follow through to the California shop.

Instead of buying a $200 endpost reamer I will try a different tack. The old post shank fits the graduated hole in the block perfectly and the new shank is about 3/16" smaller but with the same ratio. So, I'm gonna cut and drill the old shank to act as an ebony collar for the new one. Good thing I didn't replace the top. It makes it so much easier.

 

[pnchad]

I could've done better and cleaner and most certainly would if doing it again. All in all though the top went back into place without much argument. Anyone else trying this should take time, walk away and take time again to clean and level the edges. I did but would have liked to do even more. Until the seams are all aligned it's near impossible to spot high areas.

Now I am scrapping (sic reducing weight) and cleaning the tailpiece. It even had some kind of mildew or fungus on it.

I have rough fit the post which seems to be a little long which is good.

 

[pnchad]

close this thread in the next day or two.

Although I recieved a few good tidbits of advice and some encouragement, I find this whole forum (TB DB only, mind you), to have a very interesting if negative dynamic.

Here's what I mean.

No one offers serious technical advice directly through the threads.

There are only two groups of participants:

1. Honest, earnest and curious amatuers (like me).
2. Luthiers who evidently either want to protect secrets or preach.

Here's the interesting dynamic part; both groups are much more likely to speak their minds through PMs than the threads unless those threads are comprised of their respective cliques.
(If you don't believe me check a couple at random).

I got very friendly, even apologetic PMs from the more humble and flat out WARNINGS about how to conduct myself by the 'others'.

Therefore, there is no free give and take of ideas or any reason to participate. It might be a somewhat useful source of info by searching past posts, but ......

A good example is the recent post of the poor guy whose top cracked right in front of him (winter evidently) where (when last I checked), no one of experience had chimed in to recommend any immediate means of stabilizing it.

enjoy...

 

[Jeff Bollbach]

What the HELL did I miss?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Hard to explain Jeff in public but I deleted several Posts in this thread when the name calling started. Actually, I replied first and then thought the truth of the task in hand was explained too harshly to I deleted that first reply. After a few replies, I stepped in again and when I say 'Stepped in', I meand "STEPPED IN'!

Well, I wont give advice here nor does he want to hear anything I have to say. I too don't know why no one else has talked to him in the last few days either.. Hummmm?

 

[Matthew Tucker]

There are only two groups of participants:
1. Honest, earnest and curious amatuers (like me).
2. Luthiers who evidently either want to protect secrets or preach.

you missed the honest, earnest and generous luthiers who DO share their knowledge both in the forums and - more importantly - via PMs in which a greater level of frankness and detail is always more possible.

You also missed the visitors that join only to ask a common and banal question without making any attempt to search past threads for the zillions of times the question has been asked before. There's a limit to the number of times anyone wants to tell someone whose sound post has fallen to get the tension off the strings. And I think all the questions you have asked have been answered before in other threads.

Also, there are the people who think there is an obligation for those with knowledge to share it and feel indignant if it is not forthcoming. But there can be many reasons for this, not always obvious. And getting that information from experts is not a god-given right; you'll receive whatever people feel like giving.

There are plenty of bad moments here as well as great ones, and there are experts, champions, comedians and dickheads. All sorts. Enjoy.

Here's the interesting dynamic part; both groups are much more likely to speak their minds through PMs than the threads unless those threads are comprised of their respective cliques.

Nothing wrong with that, actually. You'll understand, I hope, why I pointed out to you, in PM, the history of discussion about the Traeger book, just for your knowledge. I wasn't having a go at anyone for their views, just pointing out that in that instance it might be edifying to do a little research before finding yourself embroiled in something you just don't get.

No one offers serious technical advice directly through the threads? No free give and take of ideas or any reason to participate?

I don't think so. This is one of the best places in cyberspace. there's EVERY reason to participate. But don't stomp off like a child because you don't get what you want, when you want.

Now - should I send this via PM or post in the forum?


later: I just went back and had another look at this thread. I've learnt heaps just in this one thread! What the hell are you talking about? Other than a few digressions, its largely what you wanted.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

you missed the honest, earnest and generous luthiers who DO share their knowledge both in the forums and - more importantly - via PMs in which a greater level of frankness and detail is always more possible.

You also missed the visitors that join only to ask a common and banal question without making any attempt to search past threads for the zillions of times the question has been asked before. There's a limit to the number of times anyone wants to tell someone whose sound post has fallen to get the tension off the strings. And I think all the questions you have asked have been answered before in other threads.

Also, there are the people who think there is an obligation for those with knowledge to share it and feel indignant if it is not forthcoming. But there can be many reasons for this, not always obvious. And getting that information from experts is not a god-given right; you'll receive whatever people feel like giving.

There are plenty of bad moments here as well as great ones, and there are experts, champions, comedians and dickheads. All sorts. Enjoy.




Nothing wrong with that, actually. You'll understand, I hope, why I pointed out to you, in PM, the history of discussion about the Traeger book, just for your knowledge. I wasn't having a go at anyone for their views, just pointing out that in that instance it might be edifying to do a little research before finding yourself embroiled in something you just don't get.

No one offers serious technical advice directly through the threads? No free give and take of ideas or any reason to participate?

I don't think so. This is one of the best places in cyberspace. there's EVERY reason to participate. But don't stomp off like a child because you don't get what you want, when you want.

Now - should I send this via PM or post in the forum?

Well spoken Matt but before I go I have one more quote to post.

As my son says 'dad, call a professional'.

PNCHAD, All you had to do in the first place was listen to your Son! Sometimes kids are actually smarter than their parents..

 

[pnchad]

FWIW KS, everything turned out quite well. Didn't need a professional.

Finished cutting the bridge tonight - bass sounds better than ever. I messed up here and there but that's how you learn. No damage.

Matthew, I never said I didn't get anything out of it, you and Bob were very helpful. I learned a lot from your build. This is a resource just not a hospitable one.

And, most of the communications came via PMs. I think you'd be surprised at the differing attitudes. There are clearly 2 camps and I hit a nerve both ways.

Half of you know everything, quick to judge, the other half is afraid to ask. Too jive for me. I like to enjoy whatever I'm doing with no drama.

Anyway there are more hands-on sources although not necessarily specific to bass. More on that later.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Jeff Bollbach]

y
There are plenty of bad moments here as well as great ones, and there are experts, champions, comedians and dickheads. All sorts. Enjoy..

Heh,heh, heh, Matt said dickhead[End Beavis voice] Hey wait, ru refering to me?!