Will do.
I have the second half of the claro walnut flattening now. I'm hoping to get some more work done on the sanshin sometime this weekend, hopefully get the neck glued on and finish up most of the sanding at least.
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Okinawan sanshin build
- Thread starter lbridenstine
- Start date
Will do.
I have the second half of the claro walnut flattening now. I'm hoping to get some more work done on the sanshin sometime this weekend, hopefully get the neck glued on and finish up most of the sanding at least.
A stick!
I turned it on the lathe and drilled a hole in the end of the neck.
It fits together like this.
Glued. Not sure how well this is going to work.
I turned it on the lathe and drilled a hole in the end of the neck.
It fits together like this.
Glued. Not sure how well this is going to work.
Yeah, if it doesn't hold good, I could probably drive some screws from the inside of the body into the neck.
Thank you!
The glue seems to be holding up fine so far, but I'm wondering if maybe I should drive in a couple of screws from inside of the body before I put the top and back on.
Also, does anybody have any suggestions as far as possible bracing or a plate to hold the bridge up from the underside of the walnut or does it seem like I won't need that? This is the first acoustic type instrument I've made... I have no idea how the bookmatch line will hold up with nothing on the other side.
I think I'm going to make a bridge similar to this:
Except for 3 strings. The strings are low tension, but I'm mostly worried about the 4 points where the bridge touches the top.
Also, does anybody have any suggestions as far as possible bracing or a plate to hold the bridge up from the underside of the walnut or does it seem like I won't need that? This is the first acoustic type instrument I've made... I have no idea how the bookmatch line will hold up with nothing on the other side.
I think I'm going to make a bridge similar to this:
Except for 3 strings. The strings are low tension, but I'm mostly worried about the 4 points where the bridge touches the top.
The walnut should be plenty strong enough to hold up to those little strings. I think that bridge assembly would snap long before the walnut gives way.
If you're really worried, you could epoxy a narrow strip of fiberglass under the glue joint of the bookmatch top.
If you're really worried, you could epoxy a narrow strip of fiberglass under the glue joint of the bookmatch top.
I think the bridge transmits the vibration of the string to the resonating cavity... the leather covered "drum," if you will. I think reinforcing underneath will dampen the amount of sound you get out of it.
This one isn't going to have any leather, so I'm not really sure how much that's going to affect the sound. I'll try getting the walnut pieces glued together and lay them over the body I guess and see what kind of pressure it can take.
It might be a few days before I get around to it.
Hi Lisa,
I enjoy following your builds, and I applaud your can-do attitude and accomplishments.
I never made a sanshin, nor do I know a lot about them. However, I have plenty of experience with various other standard and unorthodox stringed instruments, so I will offer my opinion on this part of your build. I take it that you have mostly been making electric instruments thus far (my apologies if that's incorrect), but some of the principles are a little different in acoustic instruments.
The first principle to take note of is that, since strings have such a tiny surface area, they hardly move any air and thus, by themselves, hardly make any sound. So, the strings transmit their vibration through the bridge to the instrument top, (or plate or soundboard), which has a much greater area and thus can potentially move a whole lot more air as it vibrates. The top transduces the energy from vibrations into sound, and as such is pretty much the heart of the instrument.
In order for that transducing to be efficient, the top has to be very light, which is why spruce, cedar, or a membrane or skin are common choices. It also has to have a good balance between stiffness and flexibility. If it is not stiff enough, it may collapse, or if it is limp or rubbery, it may soak up vibrations as internal friction and not make much sound. If it is too stiff, it will not vibrate much at the lower frequencies, and if it is too heavy, it will be too hard for the strings to move, and will make only a tiny sound.
You will notice that acoustic guitar makers use all kinds of exotic and gorgeous woods for the backs and sides of guitars, but they more often than not stick to spruce (or similar light and stiff woods such as cedar) for the top. That is because spruce is incredibly strong for its light weight; it has been found to be an ideal top or soundboard wood for many types of stringed instruments. (Yes, there are plenty of spectacularly beautiful guitars with exotic tops, but they are decidedly in the minority, and they require some differences in construction in order to function well).
Of course, membranes are very light, but would be limp and unsuitable if it were not for the fact that they are stretched tightly. The stretching makes them stiff enough to work as transducers. Many instruments, from banjos to erhus, use a stretched membrane successfully in place of a wooden soundboard.
My limited understanding of the sanshin is that it is in the same family as the shamisen, and as such, the skin covering the top is the top. If I am correct, then this is a defining feature that makes it a sanshin, and replacing the skin with solid wood makes it into some other type of instrument. As an analogy, if you took a banjo and replaced the membrane with a solid piece of wood, it wouldn't really be a banjo any longer (it would be an odd member of the guitar family, I suppose).
In terms of bridge and top relationships, there are two common types: the acoustic guitar type where the strings are anchored in the top and pull on the top as they vibrate, and the violin/archtop/shamisen/piano type where the strings extend past the top and press down on the bridge, which presses down on the top.
In the first (guitar) type, the top is often more or less flat, but has a complex system of bracing to help it to withstand the pull of the strings and distribute vibrations effectively.
In the second (violin) type, there is usually an arch built into the top. This arch helps to withstand the downforce of the strings, and the downforce of the strings helps to stiffen the top. There is surprisingly little bracing in arched instruments. Flat second type instruments such as the banjo or shamisen rely on membrane tension to withstand the downforce. As the downforce increases, deflection of the membrane makes it stiffer, so an equilibrium is reached (assuming that the membrane doesn't tear).
(A third important area of design in acoustic stringed instruments is body cavity size/shape and body and air resonance modes; I'll leave that out of this discussion, but it it critical for instrument design and function.)
Where am I going with all of this?
I am recommending that you use a membrane top for your instrument. That would keep it a sanshin, which is a time-tested design. In general, with acoustic instruments, successive generations of experiments have produced optimal designs for each type, and it is good to stay fairly close to the standard design for one's first few instruments of a type. After you have some experience with that instrument type, you can start to make small variations and explore how the changes affect the sound and response. It is amazing that sometimes if you go even 5% or 10% away from the time-tested design, you can get very different (and often undesireable) results.
But, if you decide to use a wood top, I suggest you use a thin carved spruce arch instead of a flat walnut top. I'm pretty sure that you'll get more sound that way.
In general, I do recommend experimenting, and I am not trying to stifle your creativity. When I want to experiment with a radical instrument design, I tend to knock out a test instrument (testbed) as fast as possible out of scraps to see how/if it will work (and the answer is often "no"). I really do mean scraps, drywall screws, rough bandsawn shapes 2x4's, whatever. If I can get it working acoustically, then I can make a visually pleasing and ergonomic one afterwards.
It's not too late to do some experiments either by making a quick testbed instrument or by temporarily attaching a solid top to your build and stringing it up.
It is not a lot of fun to put tons of time into an instrument and then discover that it won't work musically as you had hoped. And you have done some fine work on this build; I would like to see it come to a fruitful conclusion.
Joe
- Jun 30, 2010
- 49,582
- 221,924
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- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
What a good looking and out of the ordinary build (at least for TB)!
I'm anxious to see more.
I've spent a lot of time in Little Tokyo, Los Angeles, and have had the opportunity to listen to quite a bit of Shamisen.
Would you mind explaining what the difference is between a shamisen and a sanshin?
I'm anxious to see more.
I've spent a lot of time in Little Tokyo, Los Angeles, and have had the opportunity to listen to quite a bit of Shamisen.
Would you mind explaining what the difference is between a shamisen and a sanshin?
Thank you for all of this information, Joe. You're right, I've only made electric instruments so far and don't really have any knowledge of how acoustic instruments work.
I really would like to avoid using skin for anything. I'll try out the temporary attachment of the top (after I make the bridge, nut, and pegs) and see how it works out. You mentioned cedar is commonly used for acoustics... I don't suppose Eastern red cedar is included in that? I know it's not a real cedar, so probably not, but it's worth asking since I happen to have some and my mom would probably happily switch to that if that would work better.
I think I forgot to mention this when I started the thread, but a few months ago when my mom first asked me to make her a sanshin, she was asking if I could make something that's like a mix between a sanshin and an acoustic guitar, so that's one of the reasons I planned on using the wooden top (aside from not wanting to use skin). I told her that I have no idea how it will sound with the walnut top and she said she doesn't care as long as she can play it the same way as her other one. Obviously, we want it to sound good though, even if it doesn't sound like a sanshin. What would your opinion be on including a soundhole with a wooden top?
A lot of sanshins are made with snake skin and I have a pet snake, so that's definitely not happening (and please, no jokes about using his skin, that's not funny). There are cheaper sanshins made out of tincans. I can't really tell what my mom's is made out of since it has fabric over it, but it feels hard and sounds almost like a tin can if I knock on it, but kind of different too.
As far as I've gathered so far (before I started this build thread, I thought what she had was a shamisen), the shamisen is longer, has a more square body, and they use a different type of pick. Shamisens seem to have a white skin stretched over them and sanshins have snakeskin.
Shamisen:
Sanshin:
They use this kind of pick for a sanshin.
Link Removed
Edit: I just found this website. Link Removed
On the left side is a shamisen, right side is a sanshin (the middle two are from China and Thailand)
Link Removed
It also says:
So, I guess that's an option.
And it shows this picture of one with a wooden top.
Link Removed
If you search sanshin on ebay, you'll see some that have wooden tops too. I just read the description of one and it said that the back is uncovered to increase the volume and enhance the sound. Maybe I should do that?
Hey Lisa! This is a very interesting project and the bass.... er.... the sanshin 
is looking good. Brava!
is looking good. Brava!
Hey Lisa! This is a very interesting project and the bass.... er.... the sanshin
Haha, thank you. There's really not too much left to do, so hopefully I can get it done soon.
Thanks very much for all of the info!
I really like your work. I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures and possibly hearing it when you're done?
I really like your work. I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures and possibly hearing it when you're done?
Thank you.
I'll try to get a video/sound clip. I doubt my mom will let me record her though and I don't really know how to play it, but I'll try to figure something out.
My mom had sanshin practice today and she came home and showed me this link:
Link Removed
which looks like it's actually the company that makes those sanshins that I saw on ebay earlier.
She asked me to make something like this
Link Removed
instead of doing this type
I thought I'd show you guys this, it looks pretty interesting. Rokushins (6 strings)
Link Removed
So, anyways this is what we decided on for the hardware.
The pegs will be made of wenge with camphor burl tips. The bridge and tailpiece will be wenge and the nut will be striped ebony.
She said she didn't like the look of having the back uncovered, but a man in the group showed up with a clip-on piezo pickup and played through a pocket amp and she said if hers isn't loud enough she can do that. I told her that we still have to make sure it sounds good before you want to amplify it.
Link Removed
which looks like it's actually the company that makes those sanshins that I saw on ebay earlier.
She asked me to make something like this
Link Removed
instead of doing this type
I thought I'd show you guys this, it looks pretty interesting. Rokushins (6 strings)
Link Removed
So, anyways this is what we decided on for the hardware.
The pegs will be made of wenge with camphor burl tips. The bridge and tailpiece will be wenge and the nut will be striped ebony.
She said she didn't like the look of having the back uncovered, but a man in the group showed up with a clip-on piezo pickup and played through a pocket amp and she said if hers isn't loud enough she can do that. I told her that we still have to make sure it sounds good before you want to amplify it.
