Old School vs. New School Amplification

[iunno]

The one with the lower distortion spec, which won't necessarily be the class A amplifier.

Of course, but that has nothing to do with the topology. Given the same level of design, components and workmanship, Class A will sound the best, followed by A\B, then Class D. I'm talking about the potential of these topologies, not specific instances where they're used, which isn't really relevant at all.

You could make an all tube class A amp with cheap ebay parts and no solder, obviously it isn't going to sound as good as a properly made and designed class D.

It's not like I'm suggesting that class D amps can't sound good, or better than some class A/Bs there are plenty that do, it's just that they're of higher quality. What I'm saying is that the only reason to use Class D is for size and weight, but if you're serious about audio quality, you would never bother with something that does this to a signal.

 

[Gab124]

only advantages class D has, or can ever have, is size, weight, and power efficiency.

The only thing that is important to me - luckily mine also sound great and are dependable. Those out there with the "golden ears" I think are mostly self proclaimed and honestly statistical anomalies - these "details" in sound mean nothing to the music listening masses.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Class A will sound the best, followed by A\B, then Class D. I'm talking about the potential of these topologies.

Please objectively define the tonal characteristics of each class of amplifier, and then then explain what makes one better than the other, AND how that is lost/gained between topologies.

 

[iunno]

The only thing that is important to me - luckily mine also sound great and are dependable. Those out there with the "golden ears" I think are mostly self proclaimed and honestly statistical anomalies - these "details" in sound mean nothing to the music listening masses.

I agree, most people, especially the audience, aren't going to notice any difference. Gear, as long as it gets you enough volume, is for the musician, not the audience. They aren't going to be able to tell what instrument or amp you have. What it will give you is the expression you're looking for, which imo, will be reflected in your playing. People who really appreciate tone will be able to tell, but the vast majority won't.

Please objectively define the tonal characteristics of each class of amplifier, and then then explain what makes one better than the other, AND how that is lost/gained between topologies.

Clarity and power, control of the speaker cone. If you could hear a well designed class a tube amp the difference would be obvious, even to you.

I already told you how it is lost between topologies in my other post. Look at the images, that is how they operate, it should be very obvious to you.
Nothing can be "gained" in what we're discussing. Only less information can be lost. Class A retains the most information. Simple.

If weight and size are what's important to you, by all means get a class D head, there are plenty of good sounding ones out there. But don't try to pretend that they can magically achieve the same transparency or power as Class A. It's physically impossible because of the way they work.

 

[GVisc]

The good thing about all this is that if you like your amp, you get to keep your amp.

 

[FFTT]

I cant explain the math, physics, acoustics engineering aspects, but in super general terms,


Class A all tube, cathode biased will be the absolute most touch sensitive, think Trainwreck, Matchless, Bad Cat, Champ, Marshall 18 watters.
Light attack for cleans and crunch to rage as you dig in harder.
The guitar is the controller, the amp just responds.
A/B fixed bias or fixed adjustable bias, generally more clean headroom, has to be pushed into tube breakup
with a solid attack, added preamp gain, or pedals. Fender, Hiwatt, Marshall

I think of Solid State as commonly, overly clinical, sterile, lifeless.
This does all depend on the quality of the circuit and components.
All too often, especially in the lower budget relms, you're not hearing your instrument, but a sanitize, effected, processed version of your instrument.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Clarity and power, control of the speaker cone. If you could hear a well designed class a tube amp the difference would be obvious, even to you.

Please give a few examples of class A bass amplifiers.

I already told you how it is lost between topologies in my other post. Look at the images, that is how they operate, it should be very obvious to you.
Nothing can be "gained" in what we're discussing. Only less information can be lost. Class A retains the most information. Simple.

So please define the tonal qualities that are lost.

If weight and size are what's important to you, by all means get a class D head, there are plenty of good sounding ones out there. But don't try to pretend that they can magically achieve the same transparency or power as Class A. It's physically impossible because of the way they work.

I think you might be misunderstanding the "power" point in class A amplification.

 

[Gab124]

I agree, most people, especially the audience, aren't going to notice any difference. Gear, as long as it gets you enough volume, is for the musician, not the audience. They aren't going to be able to tell what instrument or amp you have. What it will give you is the expression you're looking for, which imo, will be reflected in your playing. People who really appreciate tone will be able to tell, but the vast majority won't.

Even they will really enjoy a good class D Then there are those that listen with eyes, put fantastic amp model X on stage while actually playing through one of the great lightweight offerings out now and there will be a few in the audience raving about how "airy" and "smooth" etc it was. And then, IF there is even one person there that says "hey, I am only hearing a class D amp! what's up"!! I would be very very surprised. Most of the greatest live sounds we hear today are mostly direct and DI anyway.

 

[iunno]

Please give a few examples of class A bass amplifiers.



So please define the tonal qualities that are lost.



I think you might be misunderstanding the "power" point in class A amplification.

Please make an actual case for your position, instead of this "I don't want to believe you because I don't understand".

You probably aren't going to find a Class A bass amp, but that is, again, completely irrelevant to this discussion. I've heard a Class A guitar amp from a small builder, and it's clear unlike any other amp I've heard. The builder himself said Class A is a huge part of it.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about, and just want to be right without having to make any argument proving your point.

 

[catgut]

I agree, most people, especially the audience, aren't going to notice any difference. Gear, as long as it gets you enough volume, is for the musician, not the audience. They aren't going to be able to tell what instrument or amp you have. What it will give you is the expression you're looking for, which imo, will be reflected in your playing. People who really appreciate tone will be able to tell, but the vast majority won't.



Clarity and power, control of the speaker cone. If you could hear a well designed class a tube amp the difference would be obvious, even to you.

I already told you how it is lost between topologies in my other post. Look at the images, that is how they operate, it should be very obvious to you.
Nothing can be "gained" in what we're discussing. Only less information can be lost. Class A retains the most information. Simple.

If weight and size are what's important to you, by all means get a class D head, there are plenty of good sounding ones out there. But don't try to pretend that they can magically achieve the same transparency or power as Class A. It's physically impossible because of the way they work.

I have nothing but agreement with your post. Both that degradation of signal is the major identifier and that given enough volume for a
personal amplification system most people can't tell a lick of difference. Also that general tonality is more architecture based than amp style based which you also spoke to. It would be hard to classify sound other than A is always on, hot, and most pure to analog source, A/B as pure as can be with also taking into account thermal confines and D where the signal is destroyed and resurrected again over and over. Zombie class.

 

[iunno]

I have nothing but agreement with your post. Both that degradation of signal is the major identifier and that given enough volume for a
personal amplification system most people can't tell a lick of difference. Also that general tonality is more architecture based than amp style based which you also spoke to. It would be hard to classify sound other than A is always on, hot, and most pure to analog source, A/B as pure as can be with also taking into account thermal confines and D where the signal is destroyed and resurrected again over and over. Zombie class.

Exactly. "Tonality" is probably not the best word to use for it, since that has more to do with EQ and things like that.

 

[Gab124]

I just wanted to say that I am still enjoying this thread, especially since it hasn't got to any nasty level - everyone still just voicing opinions. I truly believe the biggest conflict going on is the simple fact that everyone hears things differently - there is no best anything in music, ever. I think people can truly distinguish a difference in tone, the problem is that is does not make it better in any way ever. That goes beyond individual tone to the music itself; my drummer loves classic punk rock music - I would just as soon listen to a faucet drip or my dog fart than listen to that, but it does not mean its bad in anyway.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Please make an actual case for you position, instead of this "I don't want to believe you because I don't understand".

No, I am asking you to support your claim. I dont think you can. So there is no reason for me to give you one iota of credibility.

You probably aren't going to find a Class A bass amp, but that is, again, completely irrelevant to this discussion. I've heard a Class A guitar amp from a small builder, and it's clear unlike any other amp I've heard. The builder himself said Class A is a huge part of it.

I would be amazed if you could pick out different classes in a double blind test.

Your points of clarity and power are moot, as this discussion is about bass amps. With the low power actually available to class A amps, they are not useful in real world amplification. This line of arguing boils down to the same, "You dont understand, you just have to hear a class A/handwired amp to understand how much better it is..." line of faith based BS that we had a few pages back.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about, and just want to be right without having to make any argument proving your point.

Oh please. All you can do is allude to some magic concept. Quantify it. Or it doesnt exist.

 

[iunno]

No, I am asking you to support your claim. I dont think you can. So there is no reason for me to give you one iota of credibility.



I would be amazed if you could pick out different classes in a double blind test.

Your points of clarity and power are moot, as this discussion is about bass amps. With the low power actually available to class A amps, they are not useful in real world amplification. This line of arguing boils down to the same, "You dont understand, you just have to hear a class A/handwired amp to understand how much better it is..." line of faith based BS that we had a few pages back.



Oh please. All you can do is allude to some magic concept. Quantify it. Or it doesnt exist.

I explained it to you several times now, it's a very simple thing and you're just refusing to comprehend it. Maybe you need a ridiculously convoluted answer, but I don't have one for you. Class A outputs signal that is the most true to the analog input, that's all there is to it.

 

[CL400Peavey]

I explained it to you several times now, it's a very simple thing and you're just refusing to comprehend it. Maybe you need a ridiculously convoluted answer, but there isn't one. Class A outputs signal that is the most true to the analog input, that's all there is to it.

And you are ignoring the question. If you hear a difference tonally, quantify it. What does Class A sound like compared to any other class?

 

[FFTT]

2 short test clips showing Class A touch sensitivity.

 

[Jeff Scott]

I have yet to hear any amp that gets even halfway to the ... power of the Class A Tube amp I've heard. It's so clear it sounds like it's coming from inside your head.

How much power are we talking here?

... achieve the same ... power as Class A.

Again, how powerful is this Class A amp you heard that got inside your head?

Please make an actual case for you position.

This applies to you, too. What brand, model of Class A amp are you referring to? And, where can any of us go audition it, thanks?

You probably aren't going to find a Class A bass amp, but that is, again, completely irrelevant to this discussion.

I've heard a Class A guitar amp from a small builder, and it's clear unlike any other amp I've heard. The builder himself said Class A is a huge part of it.

I thought this whole discussion started because the OP was looking for a bass amp?

Who is this builder of amps that is clearly unlike any other amp you've heard? We'd all love to hear it, too.

 

[CL400Peavey]

A short test clip showing Class A touch sensitivity.

Sounds like a crappy camera mic to me.

In all seriousness, I dont think that touch sensitivity is exclusive to any particular class of amplification.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Well, you can't quantify a fart, but try to deny it exists.

 

[Gab124]

2 short test clips showing Class A touch sensitivity.

Just sounds like an amplified guitar. I think the biggest difference would be how one eq's their sound personally - you can make anything sound bad not knowing how to do that. But, I noticed no angels flying out of that amp really.