Old Singer Using Our Email List in New Band

[AltGrendel]

I agree with Stumbo.

SPILT MILK.

and

TAKE THE HIGH ROAD.

and

WHO CARES!

Same here.

 

[TRichardsbass]

This one isn't about monetary damages. You can find any lawyer who will write that letter, and here in NJ $250 is about one hours billable work, which writing the letter and sending it would probably fall just under.

I find letters with lawyers letterhead get you an immediate reaction, especially in these situations. The point is to get the singer and her new band's attention quickly and with some oomph.

Writing her an email won't do squat. She already decided to take the list and use it. And she probably won't respond to an email anyway. She probably isn't that smart, nor her new band, and hey, you know, when you threaten legal action, and its from a lawyer, that has oodles of more clout then just threatening yourself or sending an email asking them to not use the list.

Sometimes there is a good waste of money. In my mind, this is one of them. Sometimes its worth losing the money to keep your dignity and for principles.

In this case she is using her old bands list to market her new band and herself. If the other band had a following it wouldn't matter and she wouldn't need any list. So not only her, but THEY stole and inappropriately used the list. Second, it will hurt the old bands pockets, as they state they went into hiatus because she said she was leaving. Meaning, they didn't have another singer lined up and continue gigging immediately. Many people and clubs will book her band and then these guys will lose out on gigs.

For the OP, when you bring a new person in, make sure they sign a contract stating that anything they get or learn while in the band stays if they leave, and if they do something like douchy singer did they agree that they are and will be liable for damages and also a fee for use. You should also have them sign a non-compete clause, stating that they cannot sing for a band in your area for at least six months after they leave. While not always enforceable, when they leave it gives you some leverage to tell them that they need to play by the rules or you will come and get 'em.

Many industries, like day spas, hair salons and the like, have clauses like these all the time, with a non-compete in a radius of distance in them. You don't want an employee taking all your business across the street. I have found that if taken to court normally the judge will give you a 50-50 shot, but if you need to take them to court at least you have them signing and agreeing before hand.

Either way, a couple of lessons learned. No one who you know is leaving gets the list. Two, everyone should sign a contract, period. Then, if they want out the contract should spell out how they get out and what they can and cannot do.

 

[tdub0199]

I did most likely just confirm that she is using our list after asking several family members if they got the email. The only reason I do care is that this new band is in the same area as us and most likely will be playing similar music, so they are direct competition.

So.... When did music become competitive? I have never looked at other bands as "Competition"..... The music industry has really gone to Sh!t huh?

 

[lfmn16]

You dont see the problem...??? An ex-bandmate takes the mailing list of a still functioning band and uses it to market her new band? No problem there?

It's not still functioning. They are "courting" a singer. Today they don't have a singer, gigs or a band.

As the singer, I'm assuming that many people come to see the band becuase of her. Also, it sounds, from the original post, like she helped to build the mailing list. So, no, I don't see a problem.

This is one of the biggest problems with bands - nothing is in writing and everyone assumes they are on the same page -until there is a breakup.

 

[jive1]

This one isn't about monetary damages. You can find any lawyer who will write that letter, and here in NJ $250 is about one hours billable work, which writing the letter and sending it would probably fall just under..

In the past, whenever I talked to a lawyer about sending a letter, they have always told me that if you're going to send a letter, you should be prepared to follow it all the way through or else the letter has no teeth.

 

[john_g]

It's not still functioning. They are "courting" a singer. Today they don't have a singer, gigs or a band.

As the singer, I'm assuming that many people come to see the band becuase of her. Also, it sounds, from the original post, like she helped to build the mailing list. So, no, I don't see a problem.

This is one of the biggest problems with bands - nothing is in writing and everyone assumes they are on the same page -until there is a breakup.

Sorry, it is underhanded and shady, but you are right, nothing is in writing so legally we are handcuffed. But before I left to start my own business earlier this year I worked full time as a marketing director for an insurance company and worked hard to build their contact list. Does that mean its ok if I take it with me after I leave? Of course not, but as you said, my old employer had things in writing. I signed that agreement in exchange for an immediate and ongoing salary. That doesnt happen in most cover bands.

I would like to add that Im am not considering legal proceedings, even though I have a lawyer on retainer =) I am just surprised. I mean, c'mon, at least take the band members email addresses off if you are going to steal our list!

 

[BassmanSBK]

After you calm down,I suggest you refrain from sending your nasty email. It won't change anything and since she was a member of the band when you gave her the list, nothing illegal about it.

This is wise advice worth more than 2 cents. If she did not sign any agreement regarding use of the list, and you gave her the list voluntarily, you have absolutely no legal claims on her.

Nor do you have much of a moral claim. She was part of the band when those people signed up to be on the list. She has as much right to it as any of the remaining members of the band. Besides, whose to say that people on that list wouldn't be interested in her new project?

Furthermore, you said your band was on hiatus.

The high road will be a lot smoother.

 

[Febs]

Sorry, it is underhanded and shady, but you are right, nothing is in writing so legally we are handcuffed. But before I left to start my own business earlier this year I worked full time as a marketing director for an insurance company and worked hard to build their contact list. Does that mean its ok if I take it with me after I leave? Of course not, but as you said, my old employer had things in writing. I signed that agreement in exchange for an immediate and ongoing salary. That doesnt happen in most cover bands.

The existence of that contract is exactly what distinguishes your situation with your former employer from your situation with your former singer. In one case, there is a legal impediment to using the information, and the other there is not.

Out of curiosity, what exactly did you think would happen when you agreed to provide the contact list?

 

[rtslinger]

This one isn't about monetary damages. You can find any lawyer who will write that letter, and here in NJ $250 is about one hours billable work, which writing the letter and sending it would probably fall just under.

I find letters with lawyers letterhead get you an immediate reaction, especially in these situations. The point is to get the singer and her new band's attention quickly and with some oomph.

Writing her an email won't do squat. She already decided to take the list and use it. And she probably won't respond to an email anyway. She probably isn't that smart, nor her new band, and hey, you know, when you threaten legal action, and its from a lawyer, that has oodles of more clout then just threatening yourself or sending an email asking them to not use the list.

Sometimes there is a good waste of money. In my mind, this is one of them. Sometimes its worth losing the money to keep your dignity and for principles.

In this case she is using her old bands list to market her new band and herself. If the other band had a following it wouldn't matter and she wouldn't need any list. So not only her, but THEY stole and inappropriately used the list. Second, it will hurt the old bands pockets, as they state they went into hiatus because she said she was leaving. Meaning, they didn't have another singer lined up and continue gigging immediately. Many people and clubs will book her band and then these guys will lose out on gigs.

For the OP, when you bring a new person in, make sure they sign a contract stating that anything they get or learn while in the band stays if they leave, and if they do something like douchy singer did they agree that they are and will be liable for damages and also a fee for use. You should also have them sign a non-compete clause, stating that they cannot sing for a band in your area for at least six months after they leave. While not always enforceable, when they leave it gives you some leverage to tell them that they need to play by the rules or you will come and get 'em.

Many industries, like day spas, hair salons and the like, have clauses like these all the time, with a non-compete in a radius of distance in them. You don't want an employee taking all your business across the street. I have found that if taken to court normally the judge will give you a 50-50 shot, but if you need to take them to court at least you have them signing and agreeing before hand.

Either way, a couple of lessons learned. No one who you know is leaving gets the list. Two, everyone should sign a contract, period. Then, if they want out the contract should spell out how they get out and what they can and cannot do.

+1

 

[TRichardsbass]

It's not still functioning. They are "courting" a singer. Today they don't have a singer, gigs or a band.

As the singer, I'm assuming that many people come to see the band becuase of her. Also, it sounds, from the original post, like she helped to build the mailing list. So, no, I don't see a problem.

This is one of the biggest problems with bands - nothing is in writing and everyone assumes they are on the same page -until there is a breakup.

Legally it is still a band, they have a name, a set list and have played before. So what you are saying is wrong. Van Halen was without a singer twice. So does that mean Van Halen didn't exist at that point? No, Van Halen the band existed, it just didn't have any activity.

My music publishing biz goes long stretches without any action. Can I not file my required tax paperwork? No, I have to, because the entity still exists, work or not.

The OP never said the band broke up, just on hiatus.

Helping to build a band mailing list is for THAT band, not every band on the planet. If that was the case then any band I did street marketing for I helped build their list so I should get it free and use it for my gain. Nope, can't do that.

 

[TRichardsbass]

In the past, whenever I talked to a lawyer about sending a letter, they have always told me that if you're going to send a letter, you should be prepared to follow it all the way through or else the letter has no teeth.

Yes, in most cases you should be willing to go to the mats if you are invoking the lawyer. However, we are dealing with musicians here.

Very few local cover bands have ever faced even the threat of something legal, so if a lawyer provides a letter it gets their attention quickly. Most will immediately start calling and crying. In this case its a door opener.

In my mind the band members would get a call from leader of new band immediately. Then you can open the conversation. Tell them what was done was wrong, and ask for some compensation for using the list. Make it hurt but not hurtful, say $100. In any other business you have to buy or rent mailing lists, so you are only asking the same here as it was not HER property, but band property.

If they balk, Then ask them to delete all the email addresses unless they can prove these people were already on their list. Tell them that you will give them time to do it before your attorney sends the final motion to court.

Again, I'm sure we aren't dealing with geniuses here, and fear is always a good motivator.

Either way, lesson learned. Get it in writing.

 

[jive1]

Yes, in most cases you should be willing to go to the mats if you are invoking the lawyer. However, we are dealing with musicians here.

Maybe it's because it's DC, but I've known a few bands that have lawyers in them. I also know a couple of clubs owned by a lawyers as well. Yeah, there's alot of lawyers in DC.

 

[fingerbun]

Yes, in most cases you should be willing to go to the mats if you are invoking the lawyer. However, we are dealing with musicians here.

Very few local cover bands have ever faced even the threat of something legal, so if a lawyer provides a letter it gets their attention quickly. Most will immediately start calling and crying. In this case its a door opener.

In my mind the band members would get a call from leader of new band immediately. Then you can open the conversation. Tell them what was done was wrong, and ask for some compensation for using the list. Make it hurt but not hurtful, say $100. In any other business you have to buy or rent mailing lists, so you are only asking the same here as it was not HER property, but band property.

If they balk, Then ask them to delete all the email addresses unless they can prove these people were already on their list. Tell them that you will give them time to do it before your attorney sends the final motion to court.

Again, I'm sure we aren't dealing with geniuses here, and fear is always a good motivator.

Either way, lesson learned. Get it in writing.

Worth considering, but need to ascertain who owns what. For example who owns the rights to the band name? Could the singer argue that she owns the business and the OP is the interloper?

She's got a certain amount of business savvy and willingness to play hardball to have done what she's done. I agree that a letter from a lawyer maybe a good tactic but I'd think a few steps further along before deciding what to do, and not act while angry.

 

[john_g]

The existence of that contract is exactly what distinguishes your situation with your former employer from your situation with your former singer. In one case, there is a legal impediment to using the information, and the other there is not.

Out of curiosity, what exactly did you think would happen when you agreed to provide the contact list?

To be clear, I did not know she was going to quit shortly after I supplied her with the list. I did not want to hand over the list because I did not want anyone sending out emails individually, without the graphics and logo I developed. She started saying things like, maybe I could send out emails too. But thats like me saying, hey doc, maybe I can perform that open heart surgery too (she has no experience and I code everything myself)

 

[lfmn16]

The OP never said the band broke up, just on hiatus.

As long as we are nitpicking words, I didn't say the band broke up either. I said nonfunctioning. The primary function of a mailing list is to get people to come to jobs; although there are other uses for it.

Helping to build a band mailing list is for THAT band, not every band on the planet. If that was the case then any band I did street marketing for I helped build their list so I should get it free and use it for my gain. Nope, can't do that.

This is really a ridiculous argument. First of all we are not talking about every band on the planet, we are talking about one other band that the singer who helped build the list is now a member of. Second, comparing marketing you do for a band to being a member of a band is nonsense, not worth discussing.

If you would like to encourage the OP to get all worked up about something he can't do anything about, help yourself. We're talking about 300 names on a list that they aren't even currently using. I'm not saying it's not maddening, but nothing will come of this other than the OP looking stupid if he tries to make a mountain out of a mole hill. As I said previously, no one on that list cares about the OP's drama, they just want to know where the band is playing.

Last, the only place threatening a lawsuit is going to intimidate anyone is on an episode of the Brady Bunch. Maybe Bobby Brady could put on a fake mustache and pretend to be a lawyer!!

These pointless arguments just wear me out. I'm just a guy on the internet so take my advice for what it's worth.

 

[TRichardsbass]

As long as we are nitpicking words, I didn't say the band broke up either. I said nonfunctioning. The primary function of a mailing list is to get people to come to jobs; although there are other uses for it.



This is really a ridiculous argument. First of all we are not talking about every band on the planet, we are talking about one other band that the singer who helped build the list is now a member of. Second, comparing marketing you do for a band to being a member of a band is nonsense, not worth discussing.

If you would like to encourage the OP to get all worked up about something he can't do anything about, help yourself. We're talking about 300 names on a list that they aren't even currently using. I'm not saying it's not maddening, but nothing will come of this other than the OP looking stupid if he tries to make a mountain out of a mole hill. As I said previously, no one on that list cares about the OP's drama, they just want to know where the band is playing.

Last, the only place threatening a lawsuit is going to intimidate anyone is on an episode of the Brady Bunch. Maybe Bobby Brady could put on a fake mustache and pretend to be a lawyer!!

These pointless arguments just wear me out. I'm just a guy on the internet so take my advice for what it's worth.

Good debate and argument is what helps us think through issues and get points of view, helps us grow.

Threatening often works better then actual court. Think about how many cases you hear about on the news where someone threatens to file a suit only to settle out of court.

The argument that because they aren't using the email list right now is a faulty argument. The band itself still exists, and when you choose to leave the band you choose to leave behind that which is not yours. In this case the singer left and either joined a new band or formed a new band. That means you have to do all the work from scratch again. Sorry, that is the way it works in life.

Your argument also is like saying I can take from you a tool you own and use it as mine in my auto shop because you aren't using it right now in yours. Even with something like a tool you have to ask permission and receive it. In this case that didn't happen.

This is actually, IMHO, one of the better topics to beat to death, as it does show moral, ethical and professional elements.

The other poster who made it akin to taking a contact list from your old employer to start a new business is spot on. In the real world we often start a new venture and have some old contacts to build from, but you normally don't leave with all the info. You wind up having to call on your knowledge and skill and build new relationships and partnerships.

Being in a band in and of itself does not constitute building an email or marketing list. If no one collects, stores and maintains the list then you have no list. I have two people who I specifically hire to collect social media and email info for me at shows. The guitar player I hired who has been with me for nearly a decade is in the band, but he didn't build or get squat, so he has zero right to any of the bands data if he leaves or for any personal endeavor, unless he asks and I give him permission. Its band property, not one piece his.

Yes, this is maddening, and for the most part there is nothing this band can do to undo what happened, other then learn the lesson. But if it is important enough to them, then nothing wrong with pursuing it. Obviously you have to have your ducks in a row first, but if you think you were wronged and it does effect you, then by all means stand up for yourself.

Hate to say it, but the reason most people can't make a living in the biz is because many live on the unrealistic idealism that everyone who is in a band or plays music is in some communal "all you need is love" brotherhood, which is sooooooo far from the truth it makes me laugh. You don't have to be a bastard, but even on the cover scene if you don't stand up for yourself and look out for yourself, the others will tread on you big time.

 

[ChrisB2]

I think the point is that yeah, she was in the wrong and she's dirty and diabolical (combine that with "hot" and you've got somethin'). But, there's little to nothing to be gained by a legal pursuit and it even has the potential to come across really badly in terms of OP's reputation in his local music scene. The high road seems much more likely to bear fruit here, IMO.

I've used lawyer's letters before, some to a delightful result, others disappointing. But in this case, I'd let it go.

My 2¢

 

[john_g]

I think the point is that yeah, she was in the wrong and she's dirty and diabolical (combine that with "hot" and you've got somethin'). But, there's little to nothing to be gained by a legal pursuit and it even has the potential to come across really badly in terms of OP's reputation in his local music scene. The high road seems much more likely to bear fruit here, IMO.

I've used lawyer's letters before, some to a delightful result, others disappointing. But in this case, I'd let it go.

My 2¢

She is hot too...but, I dont think I would do anything on the legal front. Like I said, at most I would send the bandleader (the person who sent the email) a note that said not to use our list. Whether he complied or not would not be up to me but worth a try.

 

[john_g]

Good debate and argument is what helps us think through issues and get points of view, helps us grow.

Threatening often works better then actual court. Think about how many cases you hear about on the news where someone threatens to file a suit only to settle out of court.

The argument that because they aren't using the email list right now is a faulty argument. The band itself still exists, and when you choose to leave the band you choose to leave behind that which is not yours. In this case the singer left and either joined a new band or formed a new band. That means you have to do all the work from scratch again. Sorry, that is the way it works in life.

Your argument also is like saying I can take from you a tool you own and use it as mine in my auto shop because you aren't using it right now in yours. Even with something like a tool you have to ask permission and receive it. In this case that didn't happen.

This is actually, IMHO, one of the better topics to beat to death, as it does show moral, ethical and professional elements.

The other poster who made it akin to taking a contact list from your old employer to start a new business is spot on. In the real world we often start a new venture and have some old contacts to build from, but you normally don't leave with all the info. You wind up having to call on your knowledge and skill and build new relationships and partnerships.

Being in a band in and of itself does not constitute building an email or marketing list. If no one collects, stores and maintains the list then you have no list. I have two people who I specifically hire to collect social media and email info for me at shows. The guitar player I hired who has been with me for nearly a decade is in the band, but he didn't build or get squat, so he has zero right to any of the bands data if he leaves or for any personal endeavor, unless he asks and I give him permission. Its band property, not one piece his.

Yes, this is maddening, and for the most part there is nothing this band can do to undo what happened, other then learn the lesson. But if it is important enough to them, then nothing wrong with pursuing it. Obviously you have to have your ducks in a row first, but if you think you were wronged and it does effect you, then by all means stand up for yourself.

Hate to say it, but the reason most people can't make a living in the biz is because many live on the unrealistic idealism that everyone who is in a band or plays music is in some communal "all you need is love" brotherhood, which is sooooooo far from the truth it makes me laugh. You don't have to be a bastard, but even on the cover scene if you don't stand up for yourself and look out for yourself, the others will tread on you big time.

I agree with everything you said.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

You can make well over $250 off a single gig as a cover band. I think the letter might be a good idea.