Only $2,000 to improve your amp's performance

[billfitzmaurice]

I noticed that neither of you guys said "electrical engineer with golden ears". Thus, given that it's audiophile grade products we are discussing, you are simply not qualified to judge them.

Note that Golden Ears are invariably paired with **** for brains.

 

[anonymous02282011]

LOL

 

[Limeman]

I've auditioned a bunch of high end power cables costing up to $5k on a system with better resolution than any bass rig and not one of them sounded any different than a regular computer IEC cable.

Nordost
Cardas
Crystal
Furutech
Virtual Dynamics

etc.

That being said, I haven't tried the ESP cable so I'm not going to make any comment on whether it works or not, though my training and direct experiences with other fancy power cables leaves me extremely skeptical.

This brings up a another point: you felt those cables did not change, improve or alter the sound based on YOUR ears. Until we can quantify how your brain and ears process sound, frequency, spatial relationship, etc and then use that as the measure against potential change, then it is nothing more than YOUR opinion. But someone else "might" have heard a difference during your testing. Does that mean they are wrong and you are right? Maybe. Maybe not. Point is - our hearing is our own, 100% subjective. You can't tell me what I'm able to hear nor can I you. So if I pay $100 for a power cord and I feel it sounds better, so be it. If you think that is silly and you'd rather spend that dough on beer and pizza, go for it. Only difference is, I can produce a boatload of verifiable medical data that supports the consumption of beer and pizza (in excess of course) is NOT ideal for your health.

 

[Govier966]

I saw this is bass player, I doubt many will buy it but is it really worth that much versus just buying an amp that performs perfectly for the same price as a decent amp and this cable.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

This brings up a another point: you felt those cables did not change, improve or alter the sound based on YOUR ears. Until we can quantify how your brain and ears process sound, frequency, spatial relationship, etc and then use that as the measure against potential change, then it is nothing more than YOUR opinion. But someone else "might" have heard a difference during your testing. Does that mean they are wrong and you are right? Maybe. Maybe not. Point is - our hearing is our own, 100% subjective. You can't tell me what I'm able to hear nor can I you. So if I pay $100 for a power cord and I feel it sounds better, so be it. If you think that is silly and you'd rather spend that dough on beer and pizza, go for it. Only difference is, I can produce a boatload of verifiable medical data that supports the consumption of beer and pizza (in excess of course) is NOT ideal for your health.

Actually, there is a sense in which we CAN tell you what you can hear, or what you can't. It's not totally subjective; or at any rate it doesn't have to be. (I agree that comparing anecdotal experience is not conclusive.) If you can hear the kind of difference we're talking about, you can prove it under proper testing conditions; if you can't prove it, you can't be said with any certainty to be capable of hearing it. It doesn't even require scopes or anything like that.

Set up a properly blinded ABX test listening test between the two power cords. Then do a comparative listening test, for as long as you like. If, under these proper test conditions, you can repeatedly, reliably, and reproducibly distinguish between the two with a frequency significantly greater than mere chance would allow--you don't even have to get it right every single time--then it's reasonable to think that you can in fact hear the difference. If you can't do this, then it's fair to say that you can't hear the difference, no matter how sure you are that you can.

If you failed this test, yet still claimed you can hear the difference, then I could with justice say that you actually can't, thereby "telling you what you can hear."

It's true that none of us can hear exactly what someone else hears. But we can, at least in some cases, discover something about whether other people can hear certain things they claim to hear.

 

[engedi1]

I think that this discussion around power cables is missing the real issue, the power from the grid, and certainly at certain dive bars that many of us have to play from time to time, really sucks.
I got interested in power conditioning when my old Iamp500 issued the magic smoke after taking a power surge at a really horrible nashville club. I went out an bought a very expensive and heavy voltage regulator from Furman (ar20-series II). While providing a new level of safety, I did notice that on some gigs, my new Iamp800 didn't seem to keep up: tone or volumewise-it is like the power was getting sucked out of my rig, and I had no low end power anymore-this is with the voltage regulator. Also, I never noticed the huge improvement in tone that this unit was supposed to provide by filtering the "dirty" electricity and making it purer.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this? I would love to hear from some of our engineers who love to mock these types of products. Are they all just a waste of money? What can you do about gigs where dodgy power will kill your tone? Maybe a $150 power cord really IS the answer!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Until we can quantify how your brain and ears process sound, frequency, spatial relationship, etc and then use that as the measure against potential change, then it is nothing more than YOUR opinion.

All that was fully quantified by the audio engineering community by half a century ago.
Threads like this one always boil down to those who know what they're talking about explaining why no one should waste their money on this voodoo trash, and those who don't have a clue how sound gear actually functions protesting ad nauseum. Beam me up, Scotty...

 

[B-string]

Note that Golden Ears are invariably paired with **** for brains.

That's not real Gold, just corrosion from leakage!

 

[aborgman]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this? I would love to hear from some of our engineers who love to mock these types of products. Are they all just a waste of money?

Yes... until you hit astronomical costs for power conditioners, the $150 one is pretty much the equivalent of a $10 power strip.

 

[Limeman]

All that was fully quantified by the audio engineering community by half a century ago.
Threads like this one always boil down to those who know what they're talking about explaining why no one should waste their money on this voodoo trash, and those who don't have a clue how sound gear actually functions protesting ad nauseum. Beam me up, Scotty...

When I said "your brain", I did not mean humans in general, but was speaking directly of the brain in the TB'er who had replied to my post. I guess you fall into the camp that doesn't have a clue?

You have been beamed!

 

[Limeman]

Actually, there is a sense in which we CAN tell you what you can hear, or what you can't. It's not totally subjective; or at any rate it doesn't have to be. (I agree that comparing anecdotal experience is not conclusive.) If you can hear the kind of difference we're talking about, you can prove it under proper testing conditions; if you can't prove it, you can't be said with any certainty to be capable of hearing it. It doesn't even require scopes or anything like that.

Set up a properly blinded ABX test listening test between the two power cords. Then do a comparative listening test, for as long as you like. If, under these proper test conditions, you can repeatedly, reliably, and reproducibly distinguish between the two with a frequency significantly greater than mere chance would allow--you don't even have to get it right every single time--then it's reasonable to think that you can in fact hear the difference. If you can't do this, then it's fair to say that you can't hear the difference, no matter how sure you are that you can.

If you failed this test, yet still claimed you can hear the difference, then I could with justice say that you actually can't, thereby "telling you what you can hear."

It's true that none of us can hear exactly what someone else hears. But we can, at least in some cases, discover something about whether other people can hear certain things they claim to hear.

Great point!

 

[BassyBill]

Okay, I think I'm as entitled to comment here as anyone, moderator duties aside for the moment.

People are welcome to spend their money how they wish - or endorse whatever product they wish to, if their status as players gives them that commercial clout (without in any way making them authoritative in other respects on this issue, of course).

But I, like others here with some understanding of electricity, would like to know why the manufacturers' claims as published on their website are - let's be clear about this - totally meaningless, unscientific hogwash. It may impress the lay reader, but other than that it is drivelling, pseudotechnical nonsense. If there are some merits to their product, then why obfuscate in this way? Where's the impedance value for the cord? This is something they claim as a technical superiority, and it's easy to measure. Why don't they state the value?

As for results of double blind tests, these, too, are conspicuous by their absence. No surprises there, then.

The suggestion that "only the most musical can hear the difference" is a hilarious take on the classic Emperor's new clothes tale.

I have to say I admire the manufacturers immensely for creating a successful and highly profitable business based on people's desire to own something special. But I'm not willing to concede that there are two equally valid sides to this discussion. The burden of proof definitely resides with the faithful here - those with what Sam Harris has called "an insufficient appetite for evidence". Until then, I shall apply Occam's razor and conclude that the most obvious explanation for this phenomenon is also the most likely. Forgive me if I don't rush to try one of these for myself as I would rather spend time working on my alchemy, invisibility or astral projection if I was inclined to mysticism.

 

[Darkstrike]

Only difference is, I can produce a boatload of verifiable medical data that supports the consumption of beer and pizza (in excess of course) is NOT ideal for your health.

Now we just need a boatload of verifiable engineer data that proves a super expensive kettle lead(power cable, golden tone rope, w/e) will improve your tone, but alas, no one has stepped up to the plate.

 

[engedi1]

Forgive me if I don't rush to try one of these for myself as I would rather spend time working on my alchemy, invisibility or astral projection if I was inclined to mysticism.

If the astral projection thing ever works out for you, send your spirit over to Nashville and give me a ring!

I wish there was some way for the average person to try one of these. Does ESP have a decent return policy if the buyer is underwhelmed with his purchase?

 

[mrkreuzschlitz]

I really want to hear that MusiCord A/B/C'd with one of these.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Mythbusters, anyone?

 

[WarriorJoe7]

hmmm someone with $109 should get one and review it then reuturn it if they have a return policy.

I am amazed at the Linn Audio site... that is brilliant... not to mention evil... such greed

 

[engedi1]

I need a Linn system for my yacht...

 

[seamonkey]

Can this cable do this?

Link Removed

 

[lomo]

Actually, there is a sense in which we CAN tell you what you can hear, or what you can't. It's not totally subjective; or at any rate it doesn't have to be. (I agree that comparing anecdotal experience is not conclusive.) If you can hear the kind of difference we're talking about, you can prove it under proper testing conditions; if you can't prove it, you can't be said with any certainty to be capable of hearing it. It doesn't even require scopes or anything like that.

Set up a properly blinded ABX test listening test between the two power cords. Then do a comparative listening test, for as long as you like. If, under these proper test conditions, you can repeatedly, reliably, and reproducibly distinguish between the two with a frequency significantly greater than mere chance would allow--you don't even have to get it right every single time--then it's reasonable to think that you can in fact hear the difference. If you can't do this, then it's fair to say that you can't hear the difference, no matter how sure you are that you can.

If you failed this test, yet still claimed you can hear the difference, then I could with justice say that you actually can't, thereby "telling you what you can hear."

It's true that none of us can hear exactly what someone else hears. But we can, at least in some cases, discover something about whether other people can hear certain things they claim to hear.

This is the meat of it. It CAN be tested, but it is not to the advantage of those selling the snake oil to do so PROPERLY and OBJECTIVELY.

 

[Intenzity]

buy a Db750 and 3 sets of strings.

And still have enough left over for a cheeseburger.

A far better investment in tone improvement.

But..there is one born every minute.