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Opinion poll: another bc208, additional 1x12, or something entirely new

#22
Pocket Dave said:
A little misleading - true series/parallel configuration requires at least 4 speakers. What you have is a jack plate with separate speaker inputs for parallel and series.
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"/" in my reply it is to mean "or" not "and".

When there are only 2 speakers I thought this much was going to be painfully obviously clear but I guess not.

Also, if we are to nitpick posts for accuracy, you can do series and parallel wiring with as few as 3 speakers, it doesn't have to be 4.
 
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#23
Wasnex said:
Here's the dirty little secret. They actually can (or at least could if they wanted to). So the truth is closer to the don't want to play softly. In order to play softer, they need to select the right equipment and practice. Will it sound like a drummer bashing the kit? No. But IMHO that's okay for the music and jobs I performed.
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Since I started back in 1975 I always liked a hard hitting drummer Live still do: when I was doing sound always multi mic'd drums and had them prominent in mix

Most Rock Concerts I attended always the drums were loud dynamic and drove the Sound feel and emotion
 
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#24
This is the answer, the only answer…

63D4F1A6-6BC8-461D-B7E4-5B00EBBADDD4_Original.jpeg
 
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#25
I'm with the 'get something else' folks: more power and more speaker area. I have a pair of BC-208s and a BQ-500 'mini-rig' to use for playing semi-acoustic music with no drums. It works well enough for that, but I wouldn't try to use it with a drummer unless I knew for sure that he/she was capable of playing at a reasonable level. Very few are. This is where I disagree with my friend @Wasnex: I don't believe that all drummers CAN play 'back', but just won't. IMHO, it's a learned skill that has to be practiced; it's harder than just rocking away with abandon. Or at least that was my experience in my youthful, ill-considered attempts at playing drums.

It seems to me that all 200-watt, 8-inch drivers have pretty miserable sensitivity -- the trade-off for the high power-handling capability. :meh:
 
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#26
meisi said:
"/" in my reply it is to mean "or" not "and".

When there are only 2 speakers I thought this much was going to be painfully obviously clear but I guess not.

Also, if we are to nitpick posts for accuracy, you can do series and parallel wiring with as few as 3 speakers, it doesn't have to be 4.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll change my response to / misleading, with "/" being painfully obvious to mean "somewhat".
 
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#27
mrbell321 said:
I've currently got a tc electronic bam200 head and a bc208 cab. I'm pretty happy with it but I'm playing with a new drummer who is incredibly loud.
The bam200 can do 200watts at 4ohms, but the bc208 is 8ohm so only getting 100watt.
So some options:
  • Another bc208.
    • Lightweight.
    • feels like it was meant to be this way.
    • Low cash outlay since it's an inexpensive addition to what I have.
  • Additional 1x12.
    • Could be light but not quite as light.
    • more expensive, but still relatively small addition rather than replacement.
    • Could fill out the low end(and high end really with a tweeter).
  • Whole new setup
    • Could do anything, but want to avoid heavy heavy and cabs
    • Would have to sell what I have
Any opinions?
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I don't know anything about then bc208, what is the wattage rating, and or it's efficiency rating? I'm thinking if this drummer is really loud you're going to need In excess of 100-110 decibels. Just in a guess you may be a bit under powered. To put it in to perspective, I have a very efficient 210 cab when powered with 400 watts can generate up to 127 dB used in my gig in a 12 member horn band with no shortage of oomph.

With regard to buying a second bc208 cab, it's not going to double your volume. The engineers here can explain to you why this is.

As for mismatched cabs, not all cabs will work well with each other, so be careful here. The engineers here can explain that as well.
 
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#29
mrbell321 said:
Ah, of course. That's cool. I just haven't seen anyone actually do AB comparison like that.
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The idea was for maximum flexibility "because I can", bonus acting as sort of an attenuator for SS amps at home.

IMO, the master volume just ended up less sensitive at the beginning of its range in a "real world" setting.

I just don't find the BAM200 to be that loud of an amp.
 
#30
Wasnex said:
I think it's actually a bit misleading. AFAIK, perceived SPL is based more on the long term average SPL than the Peak SPL.

Peak SPL at 200W RMS is actually 119dB. Live bass has something like a 12dB crest factor. So the long term SPL will be more like 119 - 12 = 107dB.

Add a matching cab and double the power and you get +6dB. So if the current rig is almost loud enough, add a matching cab.

The sensitivity of the BC208 is only 93dB 1W/1m. This is pretty low.
1 cab at 100W = 113dB
2 cabs at 200W = 119dB
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Yeah, it's pretty hard to get that kind of info, so peak SPL is shorthand.
Even 107dB easily causes hearing damage so I'd say that should be loud enough for my needs. If I'm needing something to fill more space, that's what I'd say a PA is for.
 
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#31
dbsfgyd1 said:
With regard to buying a second bc208 cab, it's not going to double your volume. The engineers here can explain to you why this is.

As for mismatched cabs, not all cabs will work well with each other, so be careful here. The engineers here can explain that as well.
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Yeah, I think the scale is that 10dB is effectively doubled percieved loudness, but doubling the cab only really only gives 3dB. Which is perceptible, but not double. And I"m not really looking for double, am I? I don't need to keep up w/ a jet engine... even tho the drummer might disagree🙃

And I suppose I was hoping that some suggestions might come up on the topic of figuring out matching cabs? or experience w/ certain cabs in particular?
 
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#35
mrbell321 said:
Can you point me at these? I don't see anything called plastic-fantastic 58R on google... except this thread, actually...
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102/104 pure or energy.

I have a vertical stack of two 102 energies and they're very potent cabs with a 500W head. one 102 with a 200W head might be a little to play with a really loud drummer, but with a 500W head it can be pretty loud.

a slightly outdated pic of mine (now the cabs have no front badges and the head lives in a markworld bag):

IMG_0206.jpeg
 
#37
Aloe said:
yeah, all the 58R cabs are made not from wood, but from some composite material.
note the weight, a 35 lbs 410 is something to rave about.
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Biggest surprise - I keep a running tab of gigs for taxes: In the 123 gigs the MB58r PURE cab's been on since I bought it in July of last year - there's not a scratch, dent or ding on it.

While my second 3/4" marine birch, tolex-covered 210 cab is 13 years old, it's beat to crap. I'd expect the MB cab to show some signs of (ab)use.
 
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#39
mrbell321 said:
Even 107dB easily causes hearing damage so I'd say that should be loud enough for my needs.
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With a rig capable of 107dB with a 12dB crest factor, IME it's likely you will have have insufficient headroom for your on-stage monitoring needs unless you elevate the cab(s) to ear level and stand relatively close. Elevating the cab works well for me, but a lot of bassists seem to hate it.

So while 107dB long term is loud enough to cause hearing damage, it's probably not loud enough for you to hear as well as you want.

I recommend hearing protection for all but the lowest volume situations. I agree the sound with ear plugs sucks; but if you don't protect your hearing, the sound will suck all the time.

EXPOSURE STANDARDS: I believe these are based on long term average SPL

AFAIK there are two different exposure standards referenced in the US. I believe OSHA is the more common. NIOSH is a bit more conservative.
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Military bands use OSHA standards as their reference. Based on studies of the SPL in our military band rehearsals, we were issued and directed to wear custom plugs with Etymotic filter: ER15 or ER20.
 
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#40
mrbell321 said:
doubling the cab only really only gives 3dB.
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Assuming the cabs are as close as possible, the sensitivity goes up 3dB theoretically. Real world will probably be a bit less. If the usable power increases, you get additional SPL.

Normally when you add a cab, it's connected in parallel with first cab. Assuming both cabs are the same:
1. Combined impedance = 1/2
2. Combined power handling = 2X
3. Combined sensitivity = +3dB

Tube amps put out the same power as long as they see the expected loud. So if you have an 100W tube amp with 4 and 8 ohm outputs, you get 100W with one or two 8 ohms cabs. Since the power stays the same, adding a matching cab gets you +3dB.

Solid state amps typically produce more power as the impedance goes lower. This is not always the case, so check the specs. When the impedance is cut in half, the power may double, increase by something like 70%, or stay the same. In some rare examples, the power may also decrease.

If the power doubles you get another +3dB. So total increase is 3dB from increased sensitivity and 3dB from increased power. 3 + 3 = 6dB total

If the power increases by 70% you get ~+2.3dB. So total increase is 3dB from increased sensitivity and 2.3dB from increased power. 3 + 2.3 = 5.3dB total.

If the power stays the same you only get +3dB from increased sensitivity.
 

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