Opinions Needed

[pglaser01]

I'm not the OP so I don't know, but the way this often works is that the club is looking to book another act for another date and balks at that act's rate by saying "so-and-so is doing it for this much less."

I could see this being the case. Which is why, even though I’m approaching it as a “service” I definitely don’t want to be used as a bargaining chip if the club is telling other acts. That could also be bad word of mouth among other places too.

I appreciate everyone’s opinions and experience!!!! I think I’ve got my plans to charge what we normally charge, and I’ll find other ways to give back to my club in due time.

Thanks again!!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Take the money. If you feel like returning it, do so quietly. That fulfills your wishes AND quiets the "undercutting" complaint.

 

[Pocket Dave]

From the perspective of those complaining about undercutting, there's always going to be friends-and-family deals that undercut pricing in any market.

I don't necessarily care for it, though it helps me to remember two things.

1. There aren't enough friends and family offering discounted services to match demand. I'll be there for other available dates.
2. What others do, what they choose to charge, how and what they present as their services, all falls into the category of stuff I have no control of. I'll keep doing what I can control, and the rest quickly finds its way to the bottom of my give-a-damn list.

From the OP's perspective of what other bands & duos think or say, see #2 above.

 

[Ellery]

Screw complaints about undercutting. You are not obligated to change or sacrifice anything you want to do in order to make life easier for anybody. If they can't provide something worth more than what your act charges, they lower their price or lose the gig. That's business. Anyone who does not want to risk losing job opportunities to people who enjoy that line of work so much that they'll do it for free should have become a plumber or a mechanic. You want to do what you love, you take the risk that comes with it.

 

[alex1fly]

Take the money. If you feel like returning it, do so quietly. That fulfills your wishes AND quiets the "undercutting" complaint.

/endthread

 

[DrThumpenstein]

Take the money, give it to your gig partner. Problem solved, win-win.
Last paying gig I had, I donated my share to the drummer, who needed it a lot more than I did

Only a Canadian would be that kind to a drummer!

 

[aprod]

Screw complaints about undercutting. You are not obligated to change or sacrifice anything you want to do in order to make life easier for anybody. If they can't provide something worth more than what your act charges, they lower their price or lose the gig. That's business. Anyone who does not want to risk losing job opportunities to people who enjoy that line of work so much that they'll do it for free should have become a plumber or a mechanic. You want to do what you love, you take the risk that comes with it.

Your band mates and local musicians must love you. NOT!

 

[Ellery]

Your band mates and local musicians must love you. NOT!

I don't play for their love. I play for my love of the music.

 

[51PRI]

From the perspective of those complaining about undercutting, there's always going to be friends-and-family deals that undercut pricing in any market.

I don't necessarily care for it, though it helps me to remember two things.

1. There aren't enough friends and family offering discounted services to match demand. I'll be there for other available dates.
2. What others do, what they choose to charge, how and what they present as their services, all falls into the category of stuff I have no control of. I'll keep doing what I can control, and the rest quickly finds its way to the bottom of my give-a-damn list.

From the OP's perspective of what other bands & duos think or say, see #2 above.

Just because SOME people undercut prices doesn't mean that the OP should, or give the OP free rein to, especially if he's a thinking caring person who, based upon his decision posted above, he appears to be.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I always take the money if offered, no matter the gig. One thought, there is a small pool/tennis club in my neighborhood and they've been known to pay musicians with a free annual membership.

Anyway it's really your prerogative. If you want to offer musical services for free, that is totally your call. I wouldn't worry too much about "undercutting" other musicians honestly. It's really not their business what you are or aren't getting paid and not information that needs to be shared. I play alot of gigs as a part time musician, and have totally done some for very little pay. It has never had an impact on my local reputation or caused a riff with others.

 

[pepj]

How have people got wind of what you're paid?

But set the fee ..and hand your part back.

 

[ChrisB2]

From the perspective of those complaining about undercutting, there's always going to be friends-and-family deals that undercut pricing in any market.

Yep and it happens in every industry. Complaining about undercutting is sour grapes IMO

Now having said that, I personally work only in bands that hold the line on price, but I don't whine about low ballers. They usually can't compete at the standard-fee level, and don't cause any damage to the market, at least here and IME. The market has been damaged by DUI laws (a good thing) and vastly more options for entertainment, especially at home. Someone posted a description of "hobby" that included stamp collecting. When stuff like that was what people did to amuse themselves, live music had a much greater appeal.

Yes, one can simultaneously hold the views that you personally won't work for free/cheap, AND that you won't be bothered by those who will.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yes, one can simultaneously hold the views that you personally won't work for free/cheap, AND that you won't be bothered by those who will.

Someone (perhaps in another thread) posited that if you want to demand higher pay, you need to provide higher quality. I'd go along with that, but the reality on the ground is that finding players who are willing to work to provide a quality performance is difficult, and whether or not venues perceive quality to the degree at which they are willing to pay for it is questionable.

I have a cover band that's got some great players in it; we draw a good crowd and keep them entertained, and everyone in that band does their work and brings their A game. But that band doesn't book into these venues any more often than countless other bands who, IMO, are not as highly skilled. Beyond personal job satisfaction, there does not appear to be any true advantage or incentive at the local level for people who put in that kind of work to develop a more polished performance. So most people don't bother to do that work, and it shows.

I'm not really bothered by people who play for cheap and take up space that could be occupied by a better band. What I'm bothered by is the overarching idea that it's OK or even commendable to be selfish and unsupportive of others in the scene. But that is the world we live in; we value the competitive edge above compassion and consideration in many ways in this society.

The band scene has become a haven for non-serious dabblers, and that's OK. What it says to me is that I need to change my priorities. Money's never been a priority for me though, and that was true even back when people were throwing great amounts of it at me to do this. But I don't want to do crappy gigs anymore, and crappy gigs are pretty much all that's out there. Time to retire.

 

[Free Bassing]

I am in an acoustic duo, and we’re starting to pick up some serious steam.

We’ve been asked back this year to play at a local private pool/tennis club. Here’s the spin……I’m a member of this club. Because I am a member and I thoroughly support our club, I did not want to get paid. However I have been very clear that my partner in this duo will get paid.

This obviously makes us cheaper than other acts. Look we ALWAYS get asked back places because we’re darn good

I’ve gotten wind of a few comments that I’m undercutting other acts by not taking payment myself. But as I said, I’m a member and I’m supporting them by having crowded evenings where the pool has extra money from guests, selling concessions, etc.

What does TB think of the situation? I do this as I love playing and it’s actually a nice spot to play in the summertime. Am I actually doing a disservice under the guise of “for the benefit of the club”?

No not a disservice at all, local shows are cutthroat they always are. If the worst thing you're doing is playing cheaper than other bands would you're a saint compared to what most bands would do to get a show that was highly valued.

And if you're gaining momentum sometimes taking a pay cut to gain new fans and more word of mouth is definitely worth it.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Just because SOME people undercut prices doesn't mean that the OP should, or give the OP free rein to, especially if he's a thinking caring person who, based upon his decision posted above, he appears to be.

You may be right. Personally, I just can't afford to look at it that way - "Should" is counter-intuitive to my peace of mind in this situation, which I've also got no control over.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Yep and it happens in every industry. Complaining about undercutting is sour grapes IMO

Now having said that, I personally work only in bands that hold the line on price, but I don't whine about low ballers. They usually can't compete at the standard-fee level, and don't cause any damage to the market, at least here and IME. The market has been damaged by DUI laws (a good thing) and vastly more options for entertainment, especially at home. Someone posted a description of "hobby" that included stamp collecting. When stuff like that was what people did to amuse themselves, live music had a much greater appeal.

Yes, one can simultaneously hold the views that you personally won't work for free/cheap, AND that you won't be bothered by those who will.

Pretty much sums my view on it, though for me, complaining about undercutting might not necessarily be sour grapes - It CAN look like it if that matters.

I personally hold the line on price too. Minimum wage for musicians is low enough as it is.

And there's no place for whining in my head. Not always successful at it, though getting better - I try not to give it a voice - That inner voice, or sometimes, committee of inner voices, tried and often succeeded at mugging my ass for years. Now it's easier to recognize when it's time to tell my brain to go sit in the corner and shut up.

 

[51PRI]

Someone (perhaps in another thread) posited that if you want to demand higher pay, you need to provide higher quality. I'd go along with that, but the reality on the ground is that finding players who are willing to work to provide a quality performance is difficult, and whether or not venues perceive quality to the degree at which they are willing to pay for it is questionable.

I have a cover band that's got some great players in it; we draw a good crowd and keep them entertained, and everyone in that band does their work and brings their A game. But that band doesn't book into these venues any more often than countless other bands who, IMO, are not as highly skilled.....

Yeah, I don't think the venue owners care if the band is good or not as long as they bring, or hold, a crowd and drink and food sales are good.

....I'm not really bothered by people who play for cheap and take up space that could be occupied by a better band.....

Well, "better" is subjective. We're just talking here, because the OP has already made a decision, but...if the OP's duo charges, let's say, $300 for a gig, but the OP isn't taking his pay, then his band is playing at half the price that another duo would likely also be asking...or in that ballpark. That would definitely make a club owner take notice, I would think.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yeah, I don't think the venue owners care if the band is good or not as long as they bring, or hold, a crowd and drink and food sales are good.

Well, "better" is subjective. We're just talking here, because the OP has already made a decision, but...if the OP's duo charges, let's say, $300 for a gig, but the OP isn't taking his pay, then his band is playing at half the price that another duo would likely also be asking...or in that ballpark. That would definitely make a club owner take notice, I would think.

Well it would, but I am super tired of dealing with entitled hobbyists who think they have every right to swoop in and steal the food off the tables of those who do this for a living. I'd just as soon stop caring about them, because they clearly don't give a flying fark about anyone but themselves.

 

[Shalto]

Take the money. If you feel like returning it, do so quietly. That fulfills your wishes AND quiets the "undercutting" complaint.

Answered in one.

 

[bigboy_78]

I play at my sports club's awards night for free, the band gets paid, so the cost is 20% less to the club, but it’s kind of expected. Qualified Tradesmen (who do it for a living) in the club also donate their labour for repairs & maintenance tasks, but any men the tradies employ to help on the job are paid their wages. I see no difference.

If I’m someone is actively finding out how much a band charges and offering to do it for less, then that’s not fair, but I honestly have no idea what everyone else charges. We recently did a community charity fundraising gig, so charged 50% of our normal fee. After the gig the organiser paid us 2x what we asked, apparently the other bands were charging a lot more for an inferior product.