It's not imaginary. I know someone who does this and no I don't do his taxes or pry into his financial affairs, so I can't answer your question. It's immaterial anyway. This guy is fine doing this for fun and has no illusions of being a professional.
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Opinions Needed
- Thread starter pglaser01
- Start date
It's not imaginary. I know someone who does this and no I don't do his taxes or pry into his financial affairs, so I can't answer your question. It's immaterial anyway. This guy is fine doing this for fun and has no illusions of being a professional.
They're supposed to, but it's so few and such miniscule amounts that it's routinely ignored. And no, they can't deduct their expenses because they're not spending that with the intent of producing income.
From Google:
"At what point are you a professional musician?
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On a basic level, you're a professional if you get paid. You're a hobbyist if you operate on an amateur level. This applies to most jobs, although some base professionalism on the completion of formal training.Oct 1, 2020"
Calling myself a professional musician because I play out a few times per month and get paid a paltry sum is disrespectful to those who do the heavy lifting to bring in all or a substantial part of their income from music.
Ultimately is doesn't matter and I give it zero thought outside of these threads that pop up here with regularity.
wintremute
mediocrity at its finest
- Oct 16, 2014
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It is a weird, grey area, where someone's hobby turns into a side hustle, and then you have to make the call of "are they professional, or just a paid hobbyist?". And then we have conversations where there's a lot of misunderstanding, because people come into the conversation with their own definitions (that could be very much different from other people in the conversation) and apply their point of view onto other people's words.
What makes someone a professional? I read this interesting article: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
The author's group looked at the conditions of:
What makes someone a professional? I read this interesting article: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
The author's group looked at the conditions of:
- Being Paid
- Being an Expert
- Career Activity
- Professional Behavior
I like playing music, but I wouldn't make a career out of it.
Rules me out as a professional too, never a career in music for me.
This thread (and argument) is to the point of silly. The guy that plays bass in my one band is a professional musician. His day job is playing kid gigs at day cares and the like doing silly music as a one man band. That's his only income and his life of poverty backs that up. When this band used to play out, I would take time from my day job, etc and call places or email and get us some "paying gigs". We took it professionally....be on time, dress nice, put on a good show, know the music, etc. but none of us, considered it more than a hobby, including the bass player. When push came to shove, bassman's day job took precedent over what we were doing. Just like drummer's work travel schedule etc. The meager $100/man we got, I'd roll up with the other cash I don't tell the missus about and pay for stuff I don't want grief about. The taxman doesn't know.
The airBNB I run in my spare time? That's work, even though I get to enjoy the space when guest aren't there.
The airBNB I run in my spare time? That's work, even though I get to enjoy the space when guest aren't there.
By many definitions, Uber is a "side hustle". I ask the uber drivers about their training. They get none. I have been in ubers that are people doing airport runs between their main work and daycare options and I have been in ubers where someone is doing this full time. They keep the car extra nice and offer bottled water. I doubt anyone does Uber as "hobby" unless they like driving a black Toyota Highlander in bumper to bumper traffic, but there are certainly varying levels of professionalism.
wintremute
mediocrity at its finest
- Oct 16, 2014
- 6,942
- 29,552
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Langstrom Carrot Farms
By many definitions, Uber is a "side hustle". I ask the uber drivers about their training. They get none. I have been in ubers that are people doing airport runs between their main work and daycare options and I have been in ubers where someone is doing this full time. They keep the car extra nice and offer bottled water. I doubt anyone does Uber as "hobby" unless they like driving a black Toyota Highlander in bumper to bumper traffic, but there are certainly varying levels of professionalism.
I guess I was incomplete, because I was thinking about it in terms of skillset. Pretty much anyone can go get a job as an Uber driver, or a retail worker, because the bar for training and the skillset needed is so low.
For things that require training and skills, such as playing the bass, photography, knitting, golf, photoshop, etc - there seems to be a grey area where someone started for fun, or as a hobby, but then takes their acquired skills and tries to make some money from it. At what point are they a professional?
Pretty much everyone knows how to drive already, so no additional training in that area is required. Customer relation skills aren't required for the job, but are extremely helpful in being successful at it, and often are learned "on the job". Such is the case, demand for low-skillset and low-experience workers being what it is. A good employer will know that his new employees need additional training in customer relations. Unfortunately, Uber being an employer at a distance, those employees don't have the advantage of that type of employer-employee relationship.
The definition of being a professional is that they're using their skillset to produce wages or other income based on those skills. They become a "professional" with their first paycheck. If their skillset is lacking, there was some shortcoming in their path to that point.
Yeah, I don't know. Funny thing about driving, most everyone has a 10th grade education. Never got any additional training beyond what's necessary to pass the test at 16. Many are the same folks that think "racing isn't a sport, the cars drive themselves". I used to teach high performance driving. They do not drive themselves at that level. In that vein, I was sort of paid through free track time, and discounted rates. I would NOT consider myself a professional at it. People would hire "coaches" who actually got paid to race at some point* and they'd "coach" them for pay.
* you think music pays little? Many of the guys you see racing on TV are not making money from the *racing* part.
I think there's a point where something goes from a hobby to "work" and you find it in different ways. The rich spouse who's "hobby" cookie shop starts taking on employees and expanding? There's a point when the fun stops and the work begins. Is that when you've become a professional? IDK
One can learn to play bass in a blues band and do that and that alone in the blues circuit in St Louis. That same person can't back up a top-40 Mariah Carey tour or gets called for studio time. Still a professional?
What I do for pay, I have a certificate and a license. I know other people that have passed that same test, same cert, same license. They are hardly professional about their profession.
I would say take "fun" out of the picture completely when it comes to music. I presume all of us like to play and would do it for fun anyway whether we consider ourselves a professional or a hobbyist.
Is that true, or still true? I know that St. Louis has a rich blues history, but my cousin, who plays music in the St. Louis area, says blues is basically dead there.
If you take the "fun" out no one would do all the practice to begin with.
If, like you say, you presume we like to play and would do it for fun anyway whether we consider ourselves a professional or a hobbyist....then why in the world is it so hard for you to presume that some of us can still consider it a hobby.
I have a job with high responsibility, on call 24/7/365 whether it's a holiday or I'm on vacation, and requires lots of technical knowledge. Nothing fun about it but it paid me well enough to provide a good life for our family.
So by comparison the band is a fun hobby.
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How can someone be "on call 24/7/365" and even be in a gigging band? What happens if you get the call in the middle of your bass solo on Mustang Sally?'
