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Options to eliminate pickup induced fret buzz

#161
My last update on this thread. I'll still respond to questions if needed.


I put the bartolini mk1s back in. The issue is not present. I can go lower than my preferred action with those pickups.
Nordstrand hasnt responded yet. If they dont, I wouldn't blame them. That's a huge double edge sword. I would imagine it could start a whole new trend of problems for them, with people checking to see if their pickups affect action height.
That's not something I would want to step in either.

I understand the scepticism. I was as sceptical as well. It makes no sense logically to the average person. But for those of you interested, the information is out there. You have to dig to find it. The affects of magnetic fields on metal in motion is quite a complicated topic. Most of the information you will find is in equation form with very little summation. In other words they dont spell it out for you.
We know it is happening so there is a reason.
I will try my best to explain.

When you pluck a string 3 things vibrate . The neck, the body and the strings.
The strings have an elliptical motion. That means oval shaped if you dont know.This is normal for long, round objects attached both ends when they vibrate. As the string enters its downward motion, the magnet field is able add to the strings downward force. It's not much, under a pound of pull, but it is pulling. This same force also restricts the string from moving as high while it's in motion.
Motion is the key to everything happening here. Strings are extremely sensitive to harmonic frequencies. They are designed to be. By altering the amount of magnetic pull, and where that pull is placed on the string, we can change which hamonic frequency is strongest and how long the string vibrates to a lesser degree.

The body vibrates, but it does not have a measurable amount of flex. The bodies vibration does play a role in harmonic output. Its minor but its resonate frequency does come into play. It affects note length and harmonic balance. Its shape, weight and rigidity determine its resonate frequency.

This is where things get really interesting and I believe is THE key to why this particular bass suffered this issue when others have not.

The neck. It does all the things the body does. Its shape, weight and density create its resonate frequency which in turn affects the string harmonics.
But it does something else too. It bends. That is the key. As the strings vibrate, the neck vibrates and BENDS in a measurable way.
When the string is plucked, tension is added. This creates bow. When the string is released, that bow snaps back into place like a bow and arrow would. It's the same principal. If you watch a bow in slow motion , you can see its harmonic vibration. It does not snap back into its undrawn form instantly after launching an arrow. It vibrates for a split second.
The same principal applies to the basses neck.
It is a minute amount amount of flex but it IS there.

So the major factors are string size, tension and destiny coupled with the necks rigidity and resonant frequency, compounded by the magnetic field, all coming into play, ONLY WHILE THE STRING IS IN MOTION.
 
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#162
Part 2. The science of your basses neck and how it affects your tone.

If you've read and understand my last post you will now understand how it affects tone.

When a string is plucked , the string vibrates.
The neck gets drawn, bows and snaps back into place but it does not settle immediately. It vibrates back and forth for a few milliseconds. As the string reaches its peak, the neck is bowed. When the string moves through its resting position the neck try's to striaghted itself out and is drawn again as the string reaches its opposite peak. This process can be measure in frequency.

The way the neck affects tone , good or bad, is due to the necks natural vibration pattern.
If it resonates in time with the string, it will amplify the strings movement for a short time until both come to rest or the tension is no longer able to overcome its rigidity.
If the necks resonate frequency is not in sync with the strings vibrations, it will try to vibrate in a manner that opposes the string movement. This affects harmonics. The necks vibration will amplify certain harmonics while decreasing the amplitude of others. It also affects sustain. A neck that is moving with the natural phase of the strings will add amplitude to the strings sound, amplifying the strings natual harmonics. A neck vibrating outside of the strings natural vibration pattern will cause unnatural overtones and shortened sustain. A neck that does not flex or vibrate (there is no such neck in the world) would be the truest to the strings natural sound. The neck and strings are fighting each other when its vibration pattern is not synced with the strings. The neck wants to to one thing, the strings another. This has a substantial affect on tone.


In the end it does not matter what type of material your neck or bass is made of. What does matter is its shape, size, density and rigidity. These determine the frequency the neck resonates, which directly affects how the strings vibrate.

The body also does ALL of these things. Its flexibility is so minute it is almost non existent but its resonate frequency does come into play.

And now we know that magnetics can come into the equation much more than anyone thought possible.

It's been fun. If any one has questions feel free to ask.
 
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#163
Drop1 said:
Nordstrand hasnt responded yet. If they dont, I wouldn't blame them. That's a huge double edge sword. I would imagine it could start a whole new trend of problems for them, with people checking to see if their pickups affect action height.
Click to expand...
You're worrying about this too much. If this is a problem with their pickups that they don't know about it, you're doing them a big favor by calling it to their attention so they can do something about it. If it's a common issue with the pickup that they do know about, they are likely to either have helpful suggestions about how to deal with it, or maybe offer you a swap for a different kind of pickup if you don't find their suggestions satisfactory. Or maybe your pickup is defective, and they will replace it. I really don't see any downside for either you or them as a result of your contacting them, and I see many possible upsides.

In the meantime, you don't need to keep writing dissertations to convince us that you're right. Let's just wait and see what the nice folks at Nordstrand have to say.
 
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#164
Lobster11 said:
You're worrying about this too much. If this is a problem with their pickups that they don't know about it, you're doing them a big favor by calling it to their attention so they can do something about it. If it's a common issue with the pickup that they do know about, they are likely to either have helpful suggestions about how to deal with it, or maybe offer you a swap for a different kind of pickup if you don't find their suggestions satisfactory. Or maybe your pickup is defective, and they will replace it. I really don't see any downside for either you or them as a result of your contacting them, and I see many possible upsides.

In the meantime, you don't need to keep writing dissertations to convince us that you're right. Let's just wait and see what the nice folks at Nordstrand have to say.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with me being right. I knew I was correct from the start and the video clearly shows it.

I spent all evening last night researching and brought my acquired knowledge back to the forum in one post, compiled instead of have to shift though 100 diffenct pages on the net.
You may not care, but that information helps people. TB is always near the top of a Google search for bass related topics. I've used this site for research many times though the years. I'm sure other have too. And this information affects all of us. If I can give someone a better understanding of their instrument I will do it. I wish I had been able to read this post when this happend to me. Then I wouldn't have had to deal with the criticism and flat out being told I was imagining things. Post after post of people who are active hear passing judgment on someone just because they are new to the forum. Maybe it will help the next guy and keep them from being told they are imagining things. It's only when we fully understand the way something works can we accurately diagnose its issues.
 
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#166
Thanks for taking the time to write all this up (as well as the supplemental information on vibrations and resonances). I’m interested in what Nordstrand has to share on the topic.
 
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#167
If you're fretting up high, there's no - or virtually no - bend in the neck.

If you're getting that warbling/phasing sound 99% of this thread is essentially immaterial because the pickups are too close to the strings and that phasing will happen long before buzz is possibly affected.
 
#171
The pickups are in a mass-market bass with very popular high-ish tension strings on it, with higher-than-normal action and no room to drop the pickups further, so if the pickups are indeed the issue here then it must be a common issue.
 
#174
Drop1 said:
Are ghs boomer 40 to 95 higher tension? They dont feel like it.
Click to expand...

I meant higher tension than most strings at the same gauges.

It remains that if it's indeed the pickups causing this problem, and given your configuration is totally common - arguably less than average setups for contributing to highly-magnetic pickups causing a that possible problem - then it follows that it'd be a common occurrence.

The shop's phone number is easily found on their website, by the way. Other than the utterly cringe-y product descriptions, Nordstrand is a highly-reputable outfit with responsive customer service.
 
#176
StayLow said:
I meant higher tension than most strings at the same gauges.

It remains that if it's indeed the pickups causing this problem, and given your configuration is totally common - arguably less than average setups for contributing to highly-magnetic pickups causing a that possible problem - then it follows that it'd be a common occurrence.

The shop's phone number is easily found on their website, by the way. Other than the utterly cringe-y product descriptions, Nordstrand is a highly-reputable outfit with responsive customer service.
Click to expand...
I'm trying not to bother them too much. I sent an email. I send another tonight if I hadn't heard back yet. They have been super nice through the selection process and very informative. And I agree. The pickup descriptions make choosing very difficult by using what looks like made up words.
The tone charts are nice though.
 
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#180
Lofreck said:
I think it should be very easy to confirm/reject the assumption about high magnetic force causing the buzz. If you attach a wide metal knife on top of the pickup it will 'shortcut' the magnetic field so there will be no more pull for the strings and thus should be no buzz, right?
Click to expand...

It doesnt works that way. It would just give the blade magnetic properties. It wouldn't stop the magnetic field. Magnetic fields are partially hard to shield against.
 
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