Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem

[DwaynieAD]

playing for free is one thing i have no problem with.. being told we have to sell tickets in order to play.. now that is something i have a major problem with...

 

[aborgman]

I'd just like to add that everyone loves the old "market sets the rate" line of thinking until its their line of work getting undercut. No one likes to see their job sent overseas to cheaper labor, or given over to illegal immigrants, or given over to more efficient machines.

As someone who has worked in industries massively messed with by H1B visas, foreign employees, and massive amounts of automation - I didn't love "markets sets the rate".

I didn't hate it either.

It just IS. Pure reality. Efficiency will continue to improve, specialization will continue, and manufacturing will find the lowest cost place of doing business.

You can argue with the market, and you can battle the market - but the only way to win is to play the market.

 

[John Wentzien]

I've had experience in three very different music scenes.

1. In New Orleans, being a musician is still considered a valuable contribution to society. People support local live music, both originals and covers, and musicians are paid. A professional musician can easily make a living doing nothing but playing. The community of musicians is very tightly knit. A band showing up and playing for free would not be well received at all. This also happens to be my absolute favorite city for music- a vibrant scene of professionals who can play.

2. In Charleston, SC, there is a much smaller scene. There is very little demand for live music and most bars don't really care if they have bands or not. The generally accepted practice for unknown bands is a cut of the door, with usually some free drinks thrown in. Once a band can draw a decent crowd (anything over 50 people), they can negotiate a guarantee. Some bands do end up playing for free if they don't meet the minimum at the door (maybe 10 people). This is a pretty good music scene, with interesting bands and fun venues, but very few musicians making a living off their music.

3. Hell-Ay. The worst. An over-saturated mess of bad bands and greedy club owners. Most bands are more concerned with "making it" than making good music. Most unknown bands pay to play, and are usually stuck going on at 8pm as the first act of a 10-band showcase, getting maybe three songs in front of an empty bar, all for the dream that some Junior A&R will happen to hear them and make their dreams come true. There are a ton of professional musicians in town, though for the most part they make their living during the day doing studio work (of which there is a ton). Many of them play gigs at night, and I'm sure they aren't playing for free, but they may be playing for cheap.

So yes, the scene does matter most of all. I think the biggest thing determining the make-up of the three scenes I've had the most experience with is motivation of the artists. In New Orleans, most musicians aren't trying to "make it" on a national level. Some do, and over the last few years many have, but for the most part the musos I know are happy playing locally. In Charleston, no one expects to make it. Most bands are happy to get paid a little and be able to play what they like. In L.A., national success is the main motivation. No one cares about the L.A. scene because they all view it as jumping off point for the massive success that they just know is around the corner.

 

[hbarcat]

. . . my guitarist suggested trying to organize the local bands and refuse to play for free . . .

This.

Form a music performance guild and set standards for membership.


Make sure all member groups:

-are competent musicians
-conform to professional standards when performing
-use service agreement contracts with venues
-generally treat venues and fans with integrity and respect
-advertise before gigs to pull in customers
-set up online band sites to establish an internet following
-agree to only play at or above a minimum fee

Groups who fail to live up to these standards lose membership in the guild. Once established, member bands will earn a reputation for professionalism and quality of performance as well as having a fan base that venues can expect to show up to see the band - and to buy drinks and food from the venue.

 

[beggar98]

As someone who has worked in industries massively messed with by H1B visas, foreign employees, and massive amounts of automation - I didn't love "markets sets the rate".

I didn't hate it either.

It just IS. Pure reality. Efficiency will continue to improve, specialization will continue, and manufacturing will find the lowest cost place of doing business.

You can argue with the market, and you can battle the market - but the only way to win is to play the market.

You can win by playing the market. You will win by controlling the market. In too many cities bands have let the venues control the market. It doesn't need to be this way.

 

[MatticusMania]

playing for free is one thing i have no problem with.. being told we have to sell tickets in order to play.. now that is something i have a major problem with...

Same here. I plan on working towards getting my band paying gigs, but I know we need some work before that'll happen.

You can win by playing the market. You will win by controlling the market. In too many cities bands have let the venues control the market. It doesn't need to be this way.

I dont disagree, but how does one go about controlling the market, or rather, how can original bands take the market back from the venues? This is something Im constantly trying to figure out.

 

[beggar98]

I dont disagree, but how does one go about controlling the market, or rather, how can original bands take the market back from the venues? This is something Im constantly trying to figure out.

Like everything else, it comes down to money. The best way is to be proactive when doing your booking. Make sure the bar/club owners know you treat your band like a business, and that you respect that they are running a business as well. Use booking contracts, written down and signed before the night of the gig. Don't expect something for nothing, and don't let the bar owner expect that either. A graduated pay scale based on head count is a great way to make the bar owner comfortable, something like this:

0-20 people= $0
20-50 people= $250
50-75 people= $350
75-100 people= $500
100+= $750


(I didn't put much thought behind those numbers, but you get the idea.) That way if you don't draw the bar owner isn't out anything. If you do draw, you get paid. After a couple nights of drawing 100 people, that bar owner will be very open to negotiating a lower guarantee (of course, at that point, you should be ready for a bigger venue/bigger challenge).

There's also the route of avoiding bars/clubs and going with open venues where you pay a flat rate to book the space and then do what you want with it. This is especially good for younger bands that can't play in bars. Maybe you get 3 or 4 like-minded bands together, rent a hall and every group sells tickets. If everyone band draws 50 people, you play in front of 200 and split all the profits.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

Like everything else, it comes down to money. The best way is to be proactive when doing your booking. Make sure the bar/club owners know you treat your band like a business, and that you respect that they are running a business as well. Use booking contracts, written down and signed before the night of the gig. Don't expect something for nothing, and don't let the bar owner expect that either. A graduated pay scale based on head count is a great way to make the bar owner comfortable, something like this:

0-20 people= $0
20-50 people= $250
50-75 people= $350
75-100 people= $500
100+= $750


(I didn't put much thought behind those numbers, but you get the idea.) That way if you don't draw the bar owner isn't out anything. If you do draw, you get paid. After a couple nights of drawing 100 people, that bar owner will be very open to negotiating a lower guarantee (of course, at that point, you should be ready for a bigger venue/bigger challenge).

There's also the route of avoiding bars/clubs and going with open venues where you pay a flat rate to book the space and then do what you want with it. This is especially good for younger bands that can't play in bars. Maybe you get 3 or 4 like-minded bands together, rent a hall and every group sells tickets. If everyone band draws 50 people, you play in front of 200 and split all the profits.

Your last suggestion works. I see it done in Hawaii. It is a great way to meet the needs of the under 21 crowd. Elks clubs and other organizations rent their halls for drug and alcohol free shows for teens. This is not new. I saw Canned Heat (original members) at the opening of the Salem Youth Center years ago. Bob "The Bear" Hite palmed my skull like a basketball and asked me if I was having fun. Of course I said yes. I was 11 years old.

 

[vin*tone]

One night - tell you friends you're not playing and just don't turn up. When they angrily ask you why not tell them there was something good on TV.

 

[omnimutant]

Elks clubs and other organizations rent their halls for drug and alcohol free shows for teens. This is not new.

My first Fugazi show was at a small town community center, that they rented out. Charged a few bucks a the door. If it works for Fugazi...

 

[beggar98]

Your last suggestion works. I see it done in Hawaii. It is a great way to meet the needs of the under 21 crowd. Elks clubs and other organizations rent their halls for drug and alcohol free shows for teens. This is not new. I saw Canned Heat (original members) at the opening of the Salem Youth Center years ago. Bob "The Bear" Hite palmed my skull like a basketball and asked me if I was having fun. Of course I said yes. I was 11 years old.

Neither of my suggestions was new or original. Its about being proactive. Too many bands out there waiting for their big break instead of creating their big break.

 

[chuck norriss]

I didn't read through every reply but in a saturated market you'll have to sell your own merchandise after your gigs which can be good if you're bringing in 40 people a gig. You could also do guerrilla shows--illegal in some places--& stir the pot, get some kind of cult following. See: No Age live in the LA River.
You can also get some bands together, find someone who will let you use their venue (usually for a cut of the door revenue) & put together your own musical festival of sorts. Art openings/galleries typically accommodate this sort of thing. Hell, even a hair salon would work. Sometimes the quirky thing works. If you & other bands have followers you can pull off the one-off show but I found that usually people need _another_ reason to go (food, alcohol, art, fundraiser). Unless you're Nirvana.

 

[fingerbun]

I'd just like to add that everyone loves the old "market sets the rate" line of thinking until its their line of work getting undercut. No one likes to see their job sent overseas to cheaper labor, or given over to illegal immigrants, or given over to more efficient machines.

Having strongly argued the free market line....I'm not saying I like it. I'm saying that I think the alternatives are unworkable. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's not a new discussion, and for all that I don't agree with your perspective, lots of smart people would agree with you.

I am not sure where I sit on your hierarchy. I did music full time, and left it in a manner of my own choosing. So by your standards, I did it, therefore I can do it (or could once) therefore my music has worth. But now I am a weekend warrior, therefore not doing it for a living, therefore my playing is second rate. Did my ability to play drop ten points the day I took a day job? Or am I not understanding you?

I hate touring and in Australia you need to tour to survive. I like to play with computers, I like to play music, and I need an income. I can get a much better deal making computers my primary income source, and it removes a lot of constraints from my music (like playing songs I hate in some crappy suburban pub because you have to pay the bills and work is scarce on Wednesday nights in winter). My current lifestyle gives me much greater artistic freedom, much more money, and no touring unless I want it.

I could work a fulltime music load and hold down my day job if that was what I wanted to do. I don't.

The fact that I love my day job may be unusual.

I genuinely don't understand why you feel I have settled for second best with this approach, or why you think that someone who plays crap covers in two bit pubs is doing something more worthwhile.

I guess if you could convince me of that you could get me to support a greater degree of protectionism.

 

[bThumper38]

Play a cover gig one night for five hundred dollars a person, than play your original music for beans & rice the next. It all pans out.

 

[jimmyjames]

Being in an original band is like being an independent film maker, nobody will be lined up at the box office waiting for ur film to hit theaters if Will Smith isn't in it, and nobody is outside your venue if who ever isn't in your group... We are all in the entertainment business, how entertaining are you?

 

[cchorney]

how does one go about controlling the market, or rather, how can original bands take the market back from the venues? This is something Im constantly trying to figure out.

Maybe the problem is that you are seeing it as an "either we control the market or they control the market" situation. Instead of making it a win-lose environment where one party controls the market, look at it as a deal with a negotiated price between 2 willing participants that benefits both. And if the two of you can't negotiate a win-win deal, then its not the right deal for the two of you.

As a supplier of a good it's very difficult to "create" a paying market, and its harder still with an emerging new market to convince retailers that it exists. The retailers will be the ones taking a risk if they agree to pay you, and its unreasonable to expect them to take that risk with no compensation. As has been suggested before, its reasonable to play for free (you can make your money via merchandising if need be) the first time or two to demonstrate that you can regularly draw a paying crowd.

If you really want to play a particular venue you need to realize that playing there is of higher value to you and it will probably cost you more (in accepting a lower fee) to play there. Likewise if a venue really wants you specifically to play there then you are of higher value to them (you are no longer fungible) and it will probably cost them more (in giving you a higher fee) to get you to play there. So if you are having trouble negotiating to your price, maybe the problem is that you want to play there more than they want you to play there. The solution for that is always find another place to play.

 

[Stumbo]

....now I am a weekend warrior, therefore not doing it for a living, therefore my playing is second rate. Did my ability to play drop ten points the day I took a day job?

Lots of people have hobbies that do not generate income. Seems to me that playing in a band is a hobby for many people who don't care/need to generate cash to continue with their hobby.

 

[fingerbun]

Lots of people have hobbies that do not generate income. Seems to me that playing in a band is a hobby for many people who don't care/need to generate cash to continue with their hobby.

Hi Stumbo, I agree. My post was a question to Beggar98 who is arguing that amateurs are lesser players than pro.

 

[djaydjay]

Hi Stumbo, I agree. My post was a question to Beggar98 who is arguing that amateurs are lesser players than pro.

I hope that pros are better player than amateurs. As a job you spend all your time on it. If someone that plays 10hours a day, 6 days a week is not able to come up with someting better than someone that can only play a few hours a week, he should start looking for another job...

 

[Floyd Eye]

Lots of people have hobbies that do not generate income. Seems to me that playing in a band is a hobby for many people who don't care/need to generate cash to continue with their hobby.

And do you not see where there would be animosity when hobbyists ply their wares, FOR FREE, in venues traditional used by actual working musicians?

I don't think anyone here would question a guy who's band just wants to play. Hell, I just want to play and to me the money is totally secondary. It's nice to be able to have my gear habit somewhat funded, but we're really in it for chicks and beer.

BUT, if you just want to play for free, why not throw parties or play at other peoples parties? I think offering your services for free to bar/ club owners is stabbing other working musicians in the back.

It's probably just me though.