Original Fender Tortoise Pickguards-Why Are They Not Made

[Michael King]

I imagine most of you have seen the pre-CBS and to some extent the post CBS tortoise pick guards on Fender bass guitars. Then there is what I call the next generation or version like there is in my 1972 Fender P bass. With the emergence of the vintage reissue starting back in the 80's which have really taken off and into the relic and road worn guitars, and even on the new Standard P basses, the tort guards just don't look right as compared to the old versions. Anyone ever hear of the reason Fender could not manufacture the old guards, or the version on the early 70's basses?

 

[MobileHolmes]

I'm sure fender isn't making their own plastic, so to an extent, they are beholden to what they can get (that said, they would be a big enough buyer that they should be able to get what they want made)

One big issue is material. The early guards were celluloid, which ages really poorly (shrinks, cracks, disintegrates). The new ones aren't, so they are more stable, but won't look the same

Spitfire makes really awesome vintage style guards in several different colors and patterns. Unfortunately, they are pretty expensive. I don't think the guy is gouging, it seems that he is literally hand pouring his own plastics before cutting your guard, which has
To be a giant PITA

 

[AMJBASS]

The WD celluloid pickguards look great too. Check them out too if you are looking for a period correct guard

 

[M.R. Ogle]

FMIC certainly COULD put the pressure onto their plastics supplier to formulate a more "period-correct" looking tort, but it would doubtlessly cost them more than the regular photo-tort and other stock they're currently buying. Although I don't see that there's a huge market willing to pay more for a more "vintage-y" looking tort pickguard, really, the demand is probably a lot less than we on these boards think, I DO think that for their Custom Shop builds, it would be a nice upgrade to offer.
And if they're willing to sell a few aftermarket guards for a hundred bucks or so, that would be cool, too.

 

[jazz Bass 74]

One big issue is material. The early guards were celluloid, which ages really poorly (shrinks, cracks, disintegrates). The new ones aren't, so they are more stable, but won't look the same

I think this is the answer. The old celluloid material is simply too unstable for modern manufacturing on a large scale basis. It is like the clay dots on the fingerboard -- modern materials can get close but can't ever exactly match the 60s originals.

 

[MobileHolmes]

I think this is the answer. The old celluloid material is simply too unstable for modern manufacturing on a large scale basis. It is like the clay dots on the fingerboard -- modern materials can get close but can't ever exactly match the 60s originals.

Correct me it I'm
Wrong, but
Isn't celluloid super flammable?

 

[M.R. Ogle]

Yep. I had a piece go "poof" on me as I was sanding it with a Dremel wheel. Smelled like Vick's Vapo-Rub before it did.

 

[jazz Bass 74]

Correct me it I'm
Wrong, but
Isn't celluloid super flammable?

Yes, there's a wonderful quote from Leo Fender in Tom Wheeler's American Guitar book. He calls the cellulose nitrate material "dangerous as hell" because it was so flammable. He talks about when a fire inspector came to the Fender factory: "one time a fire inspector came, took one look, and left right away. He went about a block away and phoned us [laughs]. He was pretty upset."

 

[Michael King]

Great info. I figured the celluloid issue was one or the reasons. Do any of you have a link to Spitfire? Regarding the custom shop option, I agree with the post on providing an option for a correct guard. Kind of sad to see a dead on custom shop P or J bass and yet has a funky pick guard that just looks soon wrong.

 

[One Drop]

In fact the Italian company that made the original faux-tortoise guards in '60s still exists and will produce the originals if the minimum order for them is placed. I'm sure the demand is not there for Fender to re-order them, and to justify the cost.

 

[The Bass Clef]

I don't see why they can't at least make the colors look right on the modern reissue guards. Even though the materials used may be different nowadays (non-cellulose or whatnot), dye is still available in just about every color imaginable. The dark burgundy and browns of the newer guards just look cheapo compared to the colors of the real vintage guards. I can't think of a good reason why getting the colors right is so difficult for them.

...Although I don't see that there's a huge market willing to pay more for a more "vintage-y" looking tort pickguard, really, the demand is probably a lot less than we on these boards think, I DO think that for their Custom Shop builds, it would be a nice upgrade to offer.
And if they're willing to sell a few aftermarket guards for a hundred bucks or so, that would be cool, too.

I think there are sooo many guitar players out there buying Strats and Teles, that there is decent demand for good looking reissue guards. It seems Fender just isn't very "in tune" with what their customers want IMO. "Good enough" seems to be good enough for Fender.

 

[Tbone76]

Fender tort is still made of celluloid, but only the top layer. The other 3 layers are made of plastic. The tort layer is also thinner, I believe,than the older vintage tort. There's a tb'er that posted his attempt to slightly reshape a current Fender tort pg in his microwave, and it kind of exploded.....

 

[birdman14]

There's a great thread over on Offsetguitars.com where the guy who makes spitfire chronicles his development of reproducible vintage tort. I remember reading a whole bunch in there the various reasons they don't make the pickguards like they used to. (I'm not affiliated with him, just think his work is incredible).

Also, he has many pictures of his tort on Jazzmasters and Jags (my favorite guitars), so that's always A+.

https://spitfiretortoiseshellpickguards.wordpress.com/

 

[AltecGreen]

Celluloid is one of my favorite topics since I'm a fountain pen collector.

There are two types of celluloid, celluloid nitrate and celluloid acetate. Celluloid nitrate is the stuff with all of the cachet; it is also the version that is highly flammable. Celluloid acetate looks almost as good but does not have the cachet. A lot of modern celluloid is celluloid acetate. Camphor is used as the plasticizer in celluloid nitrate hence the Vick's smell. Celluloid is made in a different way than modern plastics. Celluloid production is more akin to making pasta since you start by making a paste that color is added later. The rolled sheets can be rolled and cut and combined with other sheets of different colors. This process enables celluloid to be made in patterns that modern plastics cannot readily replicate. Many of the great celluloid plastics used in vintage fountain pens can never be made again. That's why I often pay $2k for a vintage pen in celluloid.

Mazzuchelli is the Italian company mentioned above. They can still make the celluloid but the price is high. You have to buy a huge quantity and the stuff is expensive to make and hard to make on a scale like modern plastics. One more annoying thing about celluloid. It needs a very long time to cure after manufacture. In rod form, it can take several years to fully cure and reach a stable dimension. 15 years ago, an Italian pen company, Aurora, released a series of pens in celluloid but did not give the material enough time to cure. A year after making and selling the pens, the parts all started to shrink and the pens had to be replaced.

Check out this video to see how celluloid acetate is made (it is basically the same for celluloid nitrate other than the base chemistry).

Video . Mazzucchelli 1849

 

[Spinal Tapper]

Fascinating

 

[Jim Nazium]

The tortoises are extinct (the good ones I mean - pre CBS).

 

[tr4252]

Jazz Bass 74 wrote;

"Yes, there's a wonderful quote from Leo Fender in Tom Wheeler's American Guitar book. He calls the cellulose nitrate material "dangerous as hell" because it was so flammable. He talks about when a fire inspector came to the Fender factory: "one time a fire inspector came, took one look, and left right away. He went about a block away and phoned us [laughs]. He was pretty upset."

I remember reading this years ago, I have the book somewhere. I recall that they were bending celluloid for lap steel guitars, and to soften it they put it in a chamber with acetone fumes created by heating the acetone. I think the heated acetone was what had the inspector so worried.

Tom

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

Celluloid is one of my favorite topics since I'm a fountain pen collector.

There are two types of celluloid, celluloid nitrate and celluloid acetate. Celluloid nitrate is the stuff with all of the cachet; it is also the version that is highly flammable. Celluloid acetate looks almost as good but does not have the cachet. A lot of modern celluloid is celluloid acetate. Camphor is used as the plasticizer in celluloid nitrate hence the Vick's smell. Celluloid is made in a different way than modern plastics. Celluloid production is more akin to making pasta since you start by making a paste that color is added later. The rolled sheets can be rolled and cut and combined with other sheets of different colors. This process enables celluloid to be made in patterns that modern plastics cannot readily replicate. Many of the great celluloid plastics used in vintage fountain pens can never be made again. That's why I often pay $2k for a vintage pen in celluloid.

Mazzuchelli is the Italian company mentioned above. They can still make the celluloid but the price is high. You have to buy a huge quantity and the stuff is expensive to make and hard to make on a scale like modern plastics. One more annoying thing about celluloid. It needs a very long time to cure after manufacture. In rod form, it can take several years to fully cure and reach a stable dimension. 15 years ago, an Italian pen company, Aurora, released a series of pens in celluloid but did not give the material enough time to cure. A year after making and selling the pens, the parts all started to shrink and the pens had to be replaced.

Check out this video to see how celluloid acetate is made (it is basically the same for celluloid nitrate other than the base chemistry).

Video . Mazzucchelli 1849

$2000 for a pen? And I thought the markup on old Fenders was ridiculous.

Care to share some pen examples? I'd love to see some of these prized pens.

 

[wraub]

I, also, would like to see some pen examples too, as well.

 

[wmhill]

The tortoises are extinct (the good ones I mean - pre CBS).