BTW What the heck model bass is that? It looks like a vintage re-issue or a deluxe cosmetically, but it has an American standard decal (not re-issue) and passive electronics (not deluxe).
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Original Fender Tortoise Pickguards-Why Are They Not Made
- Thread starter Michael King
- Start date
Yes, I figure later on the epa won't let them 'make it like they used to' and it will be valuable. I'm not knocking the collector thing and understand the appreciation for things that were made a different way in a bygone era. Those pens are beautiful. But there is something ironic about waxing nostalgic for the glory days of plastic.
2000 USA jazz from with aftermarket guard and stick on vinyl blocks.
The irony is that I am a collector of vintage pens but couldn't care less about vintage guitars and basses.
Everyone has their fetish. Me, I don't care about either, but I collect vintage underwear.
This has been a very informative thread, but maybe it just got a little too informative.
I didn't really understand the objections to fake-tort until I happened to look at a low end guitar (I think an off brand, not a Squier) with a "tort" guard that looked extremely bitmapped, like a tort version of digital camo. You wouldn't be able to tell from 10-20 feet away, but it would bug me when holding the instrument.
I didn't really understand the objections to fake-tort until I happened to look at a low end guitar (I think an off brand, not a Squier) with a "tort" guard that looked extremely bitmapped, like a tort version of digital camo. You wouldn't be able to tell from 10-20 feet away, but it would bug me when holding the instrument.
I'm a collector of useless items that no longer function and books that I haven't finished.
The current Fender tort material has a celluloid top layer. They switched to a celluloid top layer on abs from full celluloid in 1965 to deal with the shrinkage issues with full celluloid material. Around this time they also switched to a different plastic manufacturer. The differences in figuring from vintage to modern mainly come from the kind of dyes used in the modern celluloid not to mention most all vintage torts have lightened over the years due to uv exposure (especially the ones prior to 1963). You also have to take into account that every block of celluloid is different and that many vintage guards are considered ugly by many. I have spoken to multiple plastic manufacturers (including the one Fender uses) about the possibility of producing something a bit more accurate and most have said it is possible but there is always a minimum order of $20k+ as you have to order a full block of celluloid. That's a lot of material. I haven't completely discounted the idea but it's not happening anytime soon. The funny thing is that everyone has a different idea of what they consider a perfect example of vintage tort so it would fragment the replica market even more. I would have to carry at least 3 different vintage type materials to satisfy people looking for a real replica. Here are all of the kinds I have had requests for.
1965
1962
1966
1973
These are all vintage, all celluloid (at least the top layer) and all different.
1965
1962
1966
1973
These are all vintage, all celluloid (at least the top layer) and all different.
Ya know Jimmy, if you're still just wearing it, it doesn't REALLY count as collecting - though the underwear is probably collecting things by now.
Yeah, you just summed up what I've been trying to say and thinking all along - only much more succinctly and with better statistics.
I'd go even further and say there are probably more like half a dozen "right" tortoise shells just in the Fender range as the ones you show are in the redder end of the spectrum and there are definitely other varieties that are darker and browner than the ones you show. And as you say, if people are paying what it would take to make that worth your while they're going to want to opt out of the "ugly" bits that will happen even within an otherwise good block of tort (places where there's too much of the nearly clear, or weird figuring or whatever).
I commented in another thread where someone complained that the tort on the squiers wasn't "right" and I told them that there were whole threads discussing the wrong-ness of the tort on the American reissues and how people pay small fortunes for the "right" vintage authentic celluloid and that even the "decent" ones that most of us settle for cost a good chunk of what those $300 Squiers go for - in other words, buy cheap OR be picky, you can't do both.
I will say that the Squiers are pretty bad. I actually make a good portion of my living from making a decent tort for Squier models so I'm quite happy that they are. But you are definitely right about getting what you pay for. I only sell celluloid tort layer material on the torts I offer. Some people complain that they are too expensive for a Squier but the material costs what it cost for a reason. I actually make around the same profit margin for every guard I make so it's not pickguard manufacturers gouging for tort. It's an expensive material and even more expensive if you want them to make a custom block for you. I'm not sure the market could bear the price but I'll keep looking into it from time to time. Fender certainly has the capitol and means to make a fairly period correct material but I'm sure they are just as concerned about their margins since they haven't had the greatest couple of years.
I'm sure they are using a single layer material which is not too pricey but laminating it to the body and bobbin is not easy so i'm sure it was pretty damn expensive. Of course all Masterbuilt models are pricey anyway.
Apparently Warmoth makes tortoise pickguards with celluloid nitrate. I priced out a pickguard for a project. and it's 50.00 plus shipping for my new p bass a volume knob and jack
Did you guys know this?
The c. 1930's Gibson L-Century has a celluloid fretboard, and National did it as a custom feature on some of their guitars, but that's all I can think of.
I briefly had a early '70s P-bass for an inspection period, and was surprised at how fake the tort guard looked. You could see the little printing dots like they use in four color process. I sent it back (for other reasons), but it still haunts me because it was an A neck, and was so light weight that at first I was afraid they'd sent me an empty box!
I was just thinking how film restorers are in a race against time with those old celluloid reels that are quickly disintegrating. I'm sure a lot of us have had old guitars with shrunken tuner buttons.
I think there is virtually zero market for $100 guards. There may be enough for a company that sells guards to produce some. Bit it will never be enough to sustain a market.
As for the claim earlier that "good enough" is good enough for Fender.....
That is and always has been true for ANY company that produces a product. It was good enough for Fender even from the beginning. It was good enough for every car manufacturer, jeans manufacturer, and shoe manufacturer. Shoes that look amazing and last forever COULD be made. But the market only supports good enough.
Any company that makes better than good enough is either a luxury company or goes out of business pretty quickly. It is not Fender specific. It is the law of economics.
Rolls Royce can make better than good enough. Ford and Chevy can't.
As for the claim earlier that "good enough" is good enough for Fender.....
That is and always has been true for ANY company that produces a product. It was good enough for Fender even from the beginning. It was good enough for every car manufacturer, jeans manufacturer, and shoe manufacturer. Shoes that look amazing and last forever COULD be made. But the market only supports good enough.
Any company that makes better than good enough is either a luxury company or goes out of business pretty quickly. It is not Fender specific. It is the law of economics.
Rolls Royce can make better than good enough. Ford and Chevy can't.
