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Overrated bass players
- Thread starter Bryan
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Again, all my comments need to be taken in a pop/rock context...
I like the Who, and I like the songs you listed.
While songs line The Real Me are bass driven- what Entwistle does is... separate from the song. I don't hear the strong bass melody in either "Won't Get Fooled..." or "The Real Me." What he's doing in "Pictures..." is fine, but IMO it's a good bass line, but not memorable. I think of Entwistle as being an average "traditional" bass player and highly recognized "wheedler." Listen to the verses, where a traditional bass player would be holding a groove (as much as I hate that expression), Entwistle's not there. He's playing over the top of it, and making the drums and guitar "cover" for his absence. Again, there's a big difference in a flurry of notes and "melody." What I really don't like is that the fundamental traditional bass role is left behind while there's a flashy flurry of notes left in place of "groove" and "pocket," leaving the drums and guitar alone. For as many bass players get upset about being referred to as "failed guitarists" I don't understand how that sort of playing, in a pop/rock context, is laudable.
I'm not saying a bass player's role should only be defined as root notes and auxilliary timekeeper. Just that there's plenty of room for being notey, melodic, flashy and movement without abandoning the core traditional role of the bass player. Look at players like John Paul Jones or Robert Sledge. Plenty of awesome playing, and the bottom never drops out.
When I think of a "good" bass player, it's someone I would want to play with. If I'm going to get frustrated with the guy going off and ignoring the role of the bass player- I wouldn't want to play with him. I want to play with (and want to be) someone that comes up with memorable lines, counter melodies, create movement, push and pull, holds the song together, creates "groove" and "pocket," while still exercising taste and an overall vision of the song as a whole- not as an excuse to play bass or show off.
Most any "live" album has more overdubs than any artist will care to admit- especially around the time of Alive and Alive II. I've heard Frampton Comes Alive referred to as the most live sounding studio album ever.
What about studio recordings?
Specific examples please.
If you don't like Gene Simmons, you can just say you don't like Gene Simmons- but if you're going to say Gene Simmons sucks, have a good reason.
Nevermind if anyone else says he's a good player or not- what do YOU think, and why?
If you think he's a jerk, that's fine. If you think he's a misogynistic jerk, that's fine. If you think he's a clown, fine. If you think he's got the most awful bass tone evAr, that's fine. If you think his songs are stupid, that's fine. But to transfer those thoughts into minimizing his compositional skills and the taste in which his bass lines are executed by saying he's a not a good bass player is wrong. IMO.
Why?
I've outlined why I think Simmons is a good bass player.
Bill Wyman is an interesting study.
Over the past 20+ years, I've always been a somewhat notey, melodic player. I've played with a lot of people, and I really thought I had my **** down. About 2 years ago I got the job in a Rolling Stones "tribute" sort of act. The guy who hired me had worked with me in a few different projects and seen me play with a few dozen bands. He told me that he wanted me to play what I thought I would play, not necessarily Wyman's parts. The big key he did give me is to work off the rhythm guitar moreso than the drums. I had no real opinion on Wyman at all, he's not memorable- in fact, his parts were mind-numbingly boring to me. As I learned the material, and tried stuff out in rehearsal- I started to see the whole concept of "space."
Never have I had to fight my instinct to play like I have with this Stones project. I had to unlearn so much stuff, and REALLY listen to what was happening. If I tried to get too melodic- it fell apart. All my instinct and experience told me what I want to do SHOULD work, but instead, after playing around with things and experimenting- I'm playing A LOT of the same things that Wyman played.
As boring as his parts may sound, Bill Wyman's playing is a frickin' clinic in selfless playing as a part of a group, and I believe every pop/rock bass player would do themselves a big favor in looking at how the Stones' stuff is put together.
IMO these definitions are what lock bass players into stereotypes. I admit I like players who play up the frets. Geddy and Steve Harris are my biggest influences. My drummer and I have disagreements (both within and outside of our band) about where I/bass players should be playing. If it was up to him I would have about 10 frets and 2 strings.
John Entwistle was not a big influence for me directly but his style was. IMO his bass playing was very cool even though I am not a big Who fan.
Yes I know about holding the groove etc etc but I am not sure if that means a bass player has to be locked down into root notes. I can play guitar but in no way am I a failed guitar player player. I love playing bass! I have a sound in my head where the bass should be in our bands originals (heavy rock) and it doesn't necessarily mean sitting back all the time. Our song styles are more chordal than riffing and there is sometimes a lot of room to play. I don't roam all the time but as I told the guys one time I am not an AC/DC type bass player. Sometimes I am with the bass drum but sometimes if our drummer throws in a fill I go with him.
Sorry probably way off topic but as I have had more than one discussion with our drummer about the bass player's role I had to throw my 2 cents in.
The words "bass players role" sometimes sends me over the moon. 
IMO these definitions are what lock bass players into stereotypes. I admit I like players who play up the frets. Geddy and Steve Harris are my biggest influences. My drummer and I have disagreements (both within and outside of our band) about where I/bass players should be playing. If it was up to him I would have about 10 frets and 2 strings.
John Entwistle was not a big influence for me directly but his style was. IMO his bass playing was very cool even though I am not a big Who fan.
Yes I know about holding the groove etc etc but I am not sure if that means a bass player has to be locked down into root notes. I can play guitar but in no way am I a failed guitar player player. I love playing bass! I have a sound in my head where the bass should be in our bands originals (heavy rock) and it doesn't necessarily mean sitting back all the time. Our song styles are more chordal than riffing and there is sometimes a lot of room to play. I don't roam all the time but as I told the guys one time I am not an AC/DC type bass player. Sometimes I am with the bass drum but sometimes if our drummer throws in a fill I go with him.
Sorry probably way off topic but as I have had more than one discussion with our drummer about the bass player's role I had to throw my 2 cents in.
"The Bass Player's Role."
How would you feel playing with a drummer that consistently leaves the beat to play fills all over the place? I mean constantly playing fills and rarely playing the beat, leaving long stretches where the beat is either implied or the guitar bass or keys need to cover that beat?
How about playing with a guitar player who just noodles over the top of everything, regardless of what else is going on?
In a pop/rock context- (as if I haven't typed that phrase enough in this thread) instruments have a defined role within that context. Regardless of whether you may consider it a "stereotype." It's generally how things roll in a pop/rock context.
You mention Lee and Harris- both of which I'd consider pretty "traditional" in the "role" of the bass player. Both very melodic, both busy, both notey- but still very traditional and IMO play with the utmost taste. In what they're doing, their busy-ness doesn't remove them from the bottom end of the spectrum, or the rhthm or "groove." Their playing is a part of it, not separate from it. I see very little similarity in the style of Entwistle vs. Lee or Harris.
I specifically said the bass player does not need to be tied to the root:
If you've had more than one discussion with your bandmates about the role of the bass (and thus, your role in the band), you may wish to try to objectively view what's going on. In playing in a pop/rock context, the ultimate goal is to provide/create a cohesive piece of music. To those ends, "expression," ego and technique take a backseat to taste and competence.
BTW, I'd be fine with 10 frets and 4 strings.
McCartney took bass playing in a different direction, flying around on his short scale bass while using a pick. He was in your face with TAXMAN, groovy on PAPERBACK WRITER and nuanced on SOMETHING --learn that one note for note with the same dynamics and then tell us what you think.
But you do have a point, most of these guys, even the ones you like, never took the time to learn theory or to read --they never needed to. You don't have to be a jazz snob to see that but Maca made bass playing in a rock band a little more interesting in 1962. Could McCartney play a Jack Bruce or a John Paul Jones bass line? If he worked on it, hell yeah.
Underrated Bassists would be an interesting thread if it has not done already.
But you do have a point, most of these guys, even the ones you like, never took the time to learn theory or to read --they never needed to. You don't have to be a jazz snob to see that but Maca made bass playing in a rock band a little more interesting in 1962. Could McCartney play a Jack Bruce or a John Paul Jones bass line? If he worked on it, hell yeah.
Underrated Bassists would be an interesting thread if it has not done already.
Hmmm bass playing isn't a competitve sport like say basketball. In Basketball someone like Jerome James has a good postseason and gets overrated and then gets a big contract. Then everyone in the league sees his salary and hears how great he is and he gets his lunch eaten and eventually doesn't even play.
In entertainment it doesn't happen. I am assuming Overrated means getting lots of exposure and not really deserving it, compared to others who are doing better stuff. The problem is that whoever defines "better stuff" is using his own opinion. Sure there are a few people who a majority of people believes sucks... fieldy for instance and a few people that a majority think is great... Geddy Lee. But everyone else falls in between. Rush can't go out on a court and beat Korn at a game because fieldy sucks and Geddy is incredible. In sports, the Celtics can go out and kill the knicks because Garnett just overwhelms Jerome James.
That being said who gets the most attention and isn't very good? I mean that's what we are asking right... Hmmm
I would say right now probably pete wentz. I mean sure he is ok but I really don't like the music. OK and remmeber this is my opinion.
In entertainment it doesn't happen. I am assuming Overrated means getting lots of exposure and not really deserving it, compared to others who are doing better stuff. The problem is that whoever defines "better stuff" is using his own opinion. Sure there are a few people who a majority of people believes sucks... fieldy for instance and a few people that a majority think is great... Geddy Lee. But everyone else falls in between. Rush can't go out on a court and beat Korn at a game because fieldy sucks and Geddy is incredible. In sports, the Celtics can go out and kill the knicks because Garnett just overwhelms Jerome James.
That being said who gets the most attention and isn't very good? I mean that's what we are asking right... Hmmm
I would say right now probably pete wentz. I mean sure he is ok but I really don't like the music. OK and remmeber this is my opinion.
first, ster, i love the robot! haven't seen him in years,
second, gene simmons is a cool dude...he's given interviews to howard stern, and when asked if he considered himself a good bass player, he answered "No way, I suck"...he says he's just delivering what he considers a part of the whole KISS package.
third, anyone claiming Les, Flea or Entwistle is "overrated" needs to post a youtube link of themselves playing. I'm dead serious here, grow some balls and post to prove your point. I'm not suggesting a "soloing" type competition, I mean a creative line or two you've come up with that really adds to a song, like they've done quite consistently.
MikeBass
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Entwistle- no, way cool IMO, and a little more latitude given to Flea,
But Les Claypool??
Overrated.........
Check Out my Myspace for my "balls".
Playing bass. Thats all. And I'm on YouTube "soloing" and junk too (but those were put up by someone else).
No such thing as an over-rated bass players IMHO. There are bassists that some people don't care to listen to due to the genre or style of music played, but there are usually plenty of people that enjoy what they do. Otherwise they wouldn't be playing bass for a living. I just have trouble dissing a fellow bass player. 
Ric5
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Again, what's so bad about Simmons' bass playing?
Yes, some of KISS' stuff is kind of dumb. But so is a lot of Foghat, April Wine, REO, Styx or plenty of other 70s rock bands.
The question was about being overrated. Its not that he sucks (few could do the all the theatrics and still play well), but there are many, many players that are better, yet some rockers that will put him near the top of their list. If everyone on this thread doesnt know at least one local player thats a better player than Gene Simmons theyre not getting out enough. This is not to take anything away from the accomplishments of his band, but I would hope that the majority of musicians on Talkbass would have a grasp of the difference between a pop or rock star and a truly great musician.
And what makes a "truly great musician?"
Sporting jaw dropping technique?
I'd say Simmons is a great player. Being a "great musician" is more about musical taste and competence than it is about technique. Playing inappropriately for the song is the worst mistake a musician can do.
I've never known anyone to say Simmons is awesome. I've known of MANY that say he sucks or is overrated. When you ask "why," the answers you get have nothing to do with his playing or compositional skills. Speaking of the 70s "classic" KISS stuff, Simmons' bass lines are melodic, and really propel and move the songs along. I'd say his lines are HEAVILY influenced by McCartney and Jamerson. He always provides a good foundation, while including movement. It's not about wheedling solos, it's not about dazzling technique. It's about playing appropriately for the song, fitting parts in tastefully and not overplaying.
Yes, he had crappy tone. Yes, he's a jerk. Yes, he's what I would consider a despicable excuse for a human being. But I think he was a fine bass player; and IMO, saying he's "overrated" or that he "sucks" without giving a proper reason and being familiar with his playing is flawed thinking, or just plain hatin.'
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