Golden Boy, the answers are all in your own response. You named two truly great musicians. Simmons is not close to that league, and I know youre not going to make the argument that he is. Youve described a successful rock star thats a competent bass player. If you know of no one saying he is anything more than that, then I guess its fair to say hes not overrated. However, for anyone else thats heard him regarded as something much more, I think its fair to say hes overrated.
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Overrated bass players
- Thread starter Bryan
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"The Bass Player's Role."
How would you feel playing with a drummer that consistently leaves the beat to play fills all over the place? I mean constantly playing fills and rarely playing the beat, leaving long stretches where the beat is either implied or the guitar bass or keys need to cover that beat?
How about playing with a guitar player who just noodles over the top of everything, regardless of what else is going on?
In a pop/rock context- (as if I haven't typed that phrase enough in this thread) instruments have a defined role within that context. Regardless of whether you may consider it a "stereotype." It's generally how things roll in a pop/rock context.
You mention Lee and Harris- both of which I'd consider pretty "traditional" in the "role" of the bass player. Both very melodic, both busy, both notey- but still very traditional and IMO play with the utmost taste. In what they're doing, their busy-ness doesn't remove them from the bottom end of the spectrum, or the rhthm or "groove." Their playing is a part of it, not separate from it. I see very little similarity in the style of Entwistle vs. Lee or Harris.
I specifically said the bass player does not need to be tied to the root:
If you've had more than one discussion with your bandmates about the role of the bass (and thus, your role in the band), you may wish to try to objectively view what's going on. In playing in a pop/rock context, the ultimate goal is to provide/create a cohesive piece of music. To those ends, "expression," ego and technique take a backseat to taste and competence.
BTW, I'd be fine with 10 frets and 4 strings.
I wasn't going to come back to this thread......but.....*sigh*
Of course I do not want the drummer rolling fills all over the place or a guitar player who "noodles". You and I are in agreement that Geddy and Steve are melodic at the same time as being busy and playing lots of notes.
Those are the types of players I love to listen and emulate to a certain degree. Personally I do not noodle.
As to your comments about my discussions with our drummer and basically telling me that I maybe the problem, you have misunderstood me (I will put that down to the internet). Our discussions while sometimes being band oriented are also theoretical about the bass in general. So I found it rather presumptious of you to provide me with a short lecture as to my role in our band.
As to Gene Simmons......I love KISS. They were my introduction to heavy rock music and the reason why I picked up a guitar. Gene, and I for one choose to believe that he did play his parts on the albums, provided no inspiration for me as a bass player. He has some cool hooks but most of his playing is fairly pedestrian compared to the players who were my bass playing idols while growing up. Of course.....IMO.
i didnt read through this thread to see how many times the players i want to mention have been mentioned already
i think that
bill dickens is way overrated. He loses me completely on his super fast crap
he doesnt groove IMO and its pretty worthless as a player
i think that
bill dickens is way overrated. He loses me completely on his super fast crap
he doesnt groove IMO and its pretty worthless as a player
Perhaps he's just not comparable as The Who were a very unconventional band in which everyone played very different roles to the norm, which wouldn't work anywhere else (Moonie in The Beatles?! I don't think so!!
)
I believe McCartney to be one of the best musicians and musical minds on the planet. He's the reason I wanted to become a musician. He's my main influence and inspiration as a bass player.
One bass line that McCartney always gets attention for is "Silly Love Songs." It's a great line.
Take the KISS song, "Strutter."
Listen to what Simmons is doing in that song. It's pretty close the same structure to the chord progression as "SLS," and Simmons' bass line is pretty much a take on McCartney's line- but more "fluid" rather than McCartney's staccato line. Not that the line is apparently lifted from McCartney- but it sure sounds like it could be "inspired" by the "SLS" line.
Only "Strutter" came out 2 years before "Silly Love Songs."
So why is McCartney lauded for being an awesome bass player and compositional genius; and "Silly Love Songs" lauded as being such a monumental line but Simmons is condemned as an overrated no-talent?
Perhaps he's just not comparable as The Who were a very unconventional band in which everyone played very different roles to the norm, which wouldn't work anywhere else (Moonie in The Beatles?! I don't think so!!
That's a very good point. Conversely, (which is kind of my point) how does a bass player with unconventional style fit into a more conventional lineup?
I wasn't going to come back to this thread......but.....*sigh*
Of course I do not want the drummer rolling fills all over the place or a guitar player who "noodles". You and I are in agreement that Geddy and Steve are melodic at the same time as being busy and playing lots of notes.
Personally I do not noodle.
As to your comments about my discussions with our drummer and basically telling me that I maybe the problem, you have misunderstood me (I will put that down to the internet). Our discussions while sometimes being band oriented are also theoretical about the bass in general. So I found it rather presumptious of you to provide me with a short lecture as to my role in our band.
As to Gene Simmons......I love KISS. They were my introduction to heavy rock music and the reason why I picked up a guitar. Gene, and I for one choose to believe that he did play his parts on the albums, provided no inspiration for me as a bass player. He has some cool hooks but most of his playing is fairly pedestrian compared to the players who were my bass playing idols while growing up. Of course.....IMO.
I didn't mean to insult you- My honest and sincere apologies. I just know from first hand experience, both as a player being lectured and as a songwriter/musical director doing the lecturing, that often players aren't the best judge of what objectively "works." While there is truth to being "your own worst critic," the player is also biased in that the player may have come up with the part, or worked really hard to "perfect" it- so objectivity isn't always possible.
No worries. No apologies necessary. I have thick skin and big shoulders. That's why I put it down to internet misinterpretation.
Hmmm . Seems like you are trying to make the argument that Simmons is on par with McCartney. Regardless, I still think you are pulling this too far out of context. I called him overrated, but I also said he was competent. You added the words no-talent to reinforce your argument. More subjective than a particular players ability and accomplishments is the general level, as a whole, that people view them. Someone being overrated has more to do with the pedestal that people place them on. If you truly believe that Simmons and McCartney are on equal footing, than youve proven my point, though not to yourself.
Please don't make a straw man out of my paraphrasing the general sentiment of many (most?) bass players in the phrase "no-talent."
I don't think I'm pulling anything too far out of context. I don't think I can, even for the sake of argument, propose that Simmons is on par with McCartney as a composer or bass player. Although you sort of touched on it, my premise is that Simmons is criminally underrated, based solely on the cartoonish image that KISS projects. Les Paul has said "people hear with their eyes." Having two players playing exactly the same thing, nearly identically- only one is wearing a clown suit, and the other is dressed like a normal human being. The person wearing the clown suit is going to have a harder time being taken seriously- regardless of note choice, timing, tone, technique...
Several times in this thread, I've asked 'what's so bad about Simmons' playing?' So far, the only direct answer I've gotten is:
I don't see that as an answer. At least an informed answer. I'm not accusing you of that attitude or thought process- Again, not pertaining to you- if you're going to say someone's overrated or sucks or in some way talk down a player, back it up with some sort of thought process.
I'm saying that a comparison between the note choice and function of the lines "Silly Love Songs" and "Strutter" would be pretty valid. I'm saying that McCartney is lauded for that bass line, but Simmons is either ignored as a serious musician for his line or taken as "overrated." What's shocking is that no-one has contested that.
The kicker is that it's not too far off in thought to think McCartney may have actually been influenced by Gene Simmons.
"In my green metal suit, I'm preparing to shoot up the city
And the ring at the end of my nose makes me look rather pretty..."
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Sarzo is solid, but I've never seen much besides that. That upside down hand on the fretboard is funny. He's certainly not a pioneer.
No such thing as an over-rated bass players IMHO. There are bassists that some people don't care to listen to due to the genre or style of music played, but there are usually plenty of people that enjoy what they do. Otherwise they wouldn't be playing bass for a living. I just have trouble dissing a fellow bass player.
+1 There are so many types of bassists out there...and someone likes them or they wouldn't be named on this thread.
I don't really consider any bass players to be overrated, but there are bassists out there that I would like to challenge to a bass dual....
There are all sorts of places for certain styles of music and certain techniques.
Why can't you all get that by now?
A bass player doesn't suck because he doesn't play one way or another......
Why can't you all get that by now?
A bass player doesn't suck because he doesn't play one way or another......
OK you piqued my interest on this. I listened to Strutter and Silly Love Songs, and while there may be similarities in note choice and function, I dont see the line in Strutter being in the same league at all. Thats not to say that Simmons line doesnt adequately serve the song, it does, but to me it doesnt make the song like McCartneys line does. Most significant is the difference in counter melody. Its so prominent on Silly Love Songs. I think thats what really makes it so cool. Creating a song in a song is a difficult thing to do well, and McCartney is a master at it. Ive read comments about not seeing the Jamerson influence in his playing, but Ive always thought his strong use of counter melody was something he likely got from listening to those great Motown tracks.
At least you listened, and thought about it. And that's what's important to me. I'm happy to disagree with an informed opinion, but I'll rail against ignorance.
For the sake of discussion:
I don't hear the counter melody in SLS. The bass IS the musical melody of the song. The piano is entirely auxilliary to the song- as it could easily function with just the bass drums and vocals. The horns and strings are the disco ear candy. I truly look at that song as being written around the bass line.
With "Strutter" it's more of a song that was written, and the bass line done for the song. Does that make sense?
When I think of a bass countermelody- I think of Lady Madonna. That bass line is technically the countermelody, but it's so dominant over the main melody of the piano. That's cool, when you think of that riff and think of it as ascending, you're thinking of the bass line- the piano melody is descending...
I don't see an outright specific Jamerson influence on McCartney- I see it more as a 'less submissive bass role' as a whole, rather than a note choice, time or technique influence. Just me.
No, I meant what I typed.
I've read of McCartney pulling out the "good artists borrow, great artists steal" quote a couple of times.
The line I quoted from "Rockshow" shows he was aware and paying some attention to the glam rock movement.
Of course there's the matter of this being written some 400 years before McCartney "wrote" it:
I see the vocals as the main melody here. From a bass players perspective, I think theres definitely a valid argument that the bass line is the main melody and the vocals are the counter melody, but I suspect thats just the way we hear it. As prominent as that line is, Ill bet if you asked a non-musician, or even a non-bass player to hum the melody, theyd give you the vocal, not the bass line.
I really love Jamersons line on Whats Going On. When that song comes on the radio, Ive caught myself singing along with it on more than one occasion. I remember a few years back my wife noticing me doing that when we were in the car together. Her comment was You sure hear songs different than I do! Shes gone to my gigs for more years than I want to say, and shes heard me practice for many more hours than anyone should have to endure, but when she listens to a tune she still identifies first with the vocal melody. Just for fun, Ill have her listen to Silly Love Songs and then ask her to hum the melody.
Simmons is not overrated. I never heard anyone say he was great.
He plays pretty well on their unplugged (well enough to make millions) and seems to sing harmonies.
He plays pretty well on their unplugged (well enough to make millions) and seems to sing harmonies.
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