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Pay to play, revisted...

#21
My wife stays home and sits the babies, and the "meal" is a 99c double stack from Wendy's, so nearly all my gig money goes in the GAS account :D

Oh... and the "pay to play" guys still have to buy all the same stuff, but they have to pay for it out of pocket, whereas the guys getting paid have gig money to spend. So I don't see any logic being defeated.

I think Time Consumer meant this hobby "more or less" pays for itself. Unlike most hobbies. How much income does a model railroader have? Or a stamp collector? At least we are making some money to offset the costs.
 
#23
Time Consumer said:
I'd agree with you on everything but the dont pay to play or play for free being a crock of $hi!, even tho we may not always end up in the black, sometimes we do and its glorious, I dont consider stuff like strings and all that being in the red either, I think of it more as a hobby that pays for itself, which is better than you can say for a ton of hobbies out there. But when bands mess up other bands ability to make money, it just becomes another money pit hobby. I've been with a money making band about 10 months now, and the only times we've played for free were at benefit/fundraisers and opening for the lovehammers at the double door and house of blues in chicago one weekend, actual exposure playin in front of 1000 people, not playin some empty venue for free and calling it exposure.
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Well put, and good to see someone avoiding the "binary logic" that often gets trotted out as informed knowledge whenever someone is asking for an opinion, and instead ends up getting a whole load of **** dressed up as gospel truth by some arrogant egomaniac who thinks he's entitled to speak for everyone based on his/her own limited experience and intelligence.

Maybe I should add that I'm referring to the polarisation of views that often occurs with this topic rather than any individual contributor.
 
#25
bassybill said:
Well put, and good to see someone avoiding the "binary logic" that often gets trotted out as informed knowledge whenever someone is asking for an opinion, and instead ends up getting a whole load of **** dressed up as gospel truth by some arrogant egomaniac who thinks he's entitled to speak for everyone based on his/her own limited experience and intelligence.

Maybe I should add that I'm referring to the polarisation of views that often occurs with this topic rather than any individual contributor.
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Yeah right. :rollno:

Fact is that you either come out ahead or you don't if talking in dollar terms. There are other things to factor of course, but those aren't in the spirit of the OP nor are model railroaders, etc.

By the way, as far as "uninformed" goes, I've been getting paid to play regularly (if not profiting) for at least 15 years now from dive bars to top-10 pop starlets selling out 1000-seaters.

And I have an education in economics, a background in finance and banking, and work as a CFO of public corporations. Granted that causes me to take costs and accounting more seriously than most. Either way, I done the math and math is binary. Feel free to twist the figures or facts if that suits your preferred outcome rather than reality, it's a very popular thing to do on this site, but fact is that no kid willing to work summers for free in the office has ever cost me a job or a dime no matter how cleverly I try to spin it or how many logical fallacies I introduce.

Plus we all have to start somewhere. Even the guy you responded to in your non-attack on anyone in particular plays for free when it suits him. Judge not, lest ye be proven full of ####.
 
#26
making descent money by playing the show has become quite a tough task in these days I think, most of the clubs will cover what my wife or someone who tag along with me would drink or eat as long as it's understandable amount in addition to actual pay.

personally speaking, if I can't do well enough because of other bands who are doing this whole 'music' thing as serious hobby, that means I'm not as good as they are, at least for me. if my band can draw certain amount of people for sure and can guarantee quality performance, I think it should be fine.

I don't really care about other people playing for free or paying to play at certain venue, it's their decision and if it works out well for them, I don't see any reason to blame or bother them but to congratulate them for their own achievements.

I mean, isn't world already filled with tons of negative thoughts?:) IMHO, it's always better to see or try to see anything in positive perspective, at least for one's own good.

I've been playing the bass for about ten-year and lucky enough to meet some great local people everywhere I go. still, I don't recall making enough money to make a living by just playing at the venue. I did get paid but I still had to do some other stuff like doing demos, session-kinda things, lessons and theatre stuff, of course that being just my case though.
 
#28
SMASH said:
Yeah right. :rollno:

Fact is that you either come out ahead or you don't if talking in dollar terms. There are other things to factor of course, but those aren't in the spirit of the OP nor are model railroaders, etc.

By the way, as far as "uninformed" goes, I've been getting paid to play regularly (if not profiting) for at least 15 years now from dive bars to top-10 pop starlets selling out 1000-seaters.

And I have an education in economics, a background in finance and banking, and work as a CFO of public corporations. Granted that causes me to take costs and accounting more seriously than most. Either way, I done the math and math is binary. Feel free to twist the figures or facts if that suits your preferred outcome rather than reality, it's a very popular thing to do on this site, but fact is that no kid willing to work summers for free in the office has ever cost me a job or a dime no matter how cleverly I try to spin it or how many logical fallacies I introduce.

Plus we all have to start somewhere. Even the guy you responded to in your non-attack on anyone in particular plays for free when it suits him. Judge not, lest ye be proven full of ####.
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Classic stuff. :D
 
#29
When I first played in bands @ the age of 18-19 I used to meet girls at gigs and they would come along with the band and hang with the WAGs (wives and girlfriends) of the other guys in the band. As they were in their 20's and 30's, my girl of the moment generally got bored silly after a few weeks, and/or got sick of the drunks hitting on her. As I was usually busy on Saturday nights, playing in said band, which is when they wanted to go out, we generally didn't stay together very long.!!.

From there I graduated to playing Bass as a full time job (5+ nights per week) and as the venues tended to be Nightclubs, Dinner/Dancing + Cabaret venues, my girlfriend was categorically not welcome at the gig (maybe New Years eve), so this issue never came up. Consequently the girlfirends didn't last too long either as they wanted to go out on a Saturday night and I was working (see previouis paragraph).

However, one thing I learned very early on was that unless the venue provided a staff meal (most did), you didn't eat there, you cooked at home and any drinking was done in the dive next door, although some musos of my acquaintance (ones with families) used to bring their own booze as well.

By all means take your wife to the gig, but If you have to hire a baby sitter, expect have a meal and a couple of drinks at the venue at restaurant prices, then you have to treat the night as an evening out, not as a money making gig. :-).
 
#30
Scuba diving's another hobby of mine. I'd love to get paid for it but I don't - so I pay to do it, cos I love it. Same applies to music.

Forgot to say that I recently calculated: in 5 years of playing (well over 100 gigs with a few different bands + artists), I've probably made a total of about £600 - most of which came from a pro band I played some gigs with one summer!
 
#32
bassplayer8953 said:
Answer from the boring bassplayer: Do you want me to give them something to watch???:hiding:

Seriously (to the wife): if it bores you, stay home. Save me the cost of a babysitter.
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that's exactly what she does. This is what she tells her when I ask her to come out. Plus, we practice at my house so she's heard these songs many times outside of the performance setting. My parents and sister in law will even watch the kids for free.

She supports me as she says very little about equipment I buy or the time the band takes up, but she just can't sit through the same 50-100 songs over and over.
 
#34
Renaissance said:
Modulusman, you must be single.
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I am quite married and I've found the key is playing in a band that your wife cannot stand is the key to her not coming to gigs.

That's not intentional on my part (playing in a band she's not into) - but for the most part, the kind of bands I want to play in these days are the ones playing music she's just not that in to.

Add to that a lot of the places we play are still smoker bars and it's a given that she's not in the crowd.

So - get a better paying gig with a band your wife doesn't like and you'll be in the black before you know it.
 
#35
SMASH said:
Yeah right. :rollno:

Fact is that you either come out ahead or you don't if talking in dollar terms. There are other things to factor of course, but those aren't in the spirit of the OP nor are model railroaders, etc.

By the way, as far as "uninformed" goes, I've been getting paid to play regularly (if not profiting) for at least 15 years now from dive bars to top-10 pop starlets selling out 1000-seaters.

And I have an education in economics, a background in finance and banking, and work as a CFO of public corporations. Granted that causes me to take costs and accounting more seriously than most. Either way, I done the math and math is binary. Feel free to twist the figures or facts if that suits your preferred outcome rather than reality, it's a very popular thing to do on this site, but fact is that no kid willing to work summers for free in the office has ever cost me a job or a dime no matter how cleverly I try to spin it or how many logical fallacies I introduce.

Plus we all have to start somewhere. Even the guy you responded to in your non-attack on anyone in particular plays for free when it suits him. Judge not, lest ye be proven full of ####.
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Exactly, im not so good with the words but you said it better, playing for free isn't frowned upon in my mind, ya just gotta do it when it makes sense, another time we've played free I forgot to mention is a couple bar shows where the owner just wanted to see how we did, then they'd pay us in the future, stuff like that. As far as the "wags"(I love that phrase, what does it stand for btw?) are concerned we try to get them in on the free boos and food as much as possible. We end up gettin a good deal usually, thats why I dont particularly like when people play for free a lot cuz it doesnt take that much work to get payed really, but maybe im alone in that thinking.
 
#38
There are ways, if you simply think creatively to minimize your gigging costs. It's actually pretty easy.

Becuase of the horse trading I've done over the years, many of my instruments have ended up not costing me anything to purchase and in some cases I've ended up with a profit.

For strings, I peruse thrift stores and pawnshops and take advantage of the stupid deals I find there. Then I take those deals and flip them or even easier, trade them for maintainence items. For example, I can usually find guitar combo amps valued at over $100 for around $20. I can take that to a local store and trade that for three sets of $35 strings. My wife bought a bulk loyt of bass and gutar strings on sale at a Goodwill. Several bass sets, dozens of guitar sets at $1/set. When I need strings I can grab a handful of the guitars strings. I already traded five sets of bass strings for four sets of DR Fatbeams. Cost my wife $5 and I got well over $150 worth of strings.

I also strive to take gigs with decent pay. Might as well start off in the black. When I'm on gigs I don't buy drinks or blow money on stuff like that. In many cases venues that can't or don't pay well are willing to compensate in other ways... might mean a free meal or whatever. I've had the close I gig in for a while and they could easily be paid against the profits I've turned on gear.

If you think fiscally, you can come out ahead. If you simply spend and go play yes, the bottom line can look bleak.
 
#39
kesslari said:
<minor rant on>
Actually, I must say that I am confounded by the fact (most noticeable because I took 15 years away from playing) that the pay for most bar gigs ($50-60 per person) is the SAME as it was in the 1980's. HOW CAN THAT BE? What other profession has had no income growth in 30 years, while cost of living has tripled?
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As long as you take gigs at $50-60 per man, they'll keep paying that.

My cover band doesn't load the trailer for less than $100/man and that generally includes some kind of bar tab on top of that. And, I'll be the first to say that we're nothing special, as cover bands go. And, we've been working 3 to 4 nights per month, which is as much as any of us want.
 
#40
kesslari said:
Ah, but there are benefits to the wife having a good time :D

Heck, I'm definitely not complaining. If I needed to do this for the money, I'd do it differently (and did, way back). I no longer have to assess gigs based on their income generation, or have to play them to maximize that. Now I get to play the musics I love, regardless of the commercial market, and my mortgage is not dependent on drunk people and club owners. That's a big benefit for me. (YMMV - and full respect to those who play for a living. Been there, and for myself, this way works better.)

Just struck me as funny. You can net more as a babysitter than as a musician :D

<minor rant on>
Actually, I must say that I am confounded by the fact (most noticeable because I took 15 years away from playing) that the pay for most bar gigs ($50-60 per person) is the SAME as it was in the 1980's. HOW CAN THAT BE? What other profession has had no income growth in 30 years, while cost of living has tripled?
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You must not be playing the good gigs, unless your $50-60 a person is after the deductions you listed. I know a lot of people in bands who make a minimum of $150 a night.
 

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