• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Peacock Blows off Costello...

I think Elvis wrote some timeless rock tunes. He was a great rock 'n roll tunesmith but he hasn't written anything timeless in at least 20 years. "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace Love and Understanding" still blows the doors off most anything like it. If you don't like that tune you just don't dig rock music -- it's got little to do with Elvis' talent. That record works as well today as it did the day after they cut it.

Musicians who have the attitude "Gary Peacock is a fine artist and Elvis Costello is a lowly piece of crap"? The only way I can figure people like that out is using concepts like "small mindedness", "a want of generosity", etc. Open up your ears. You don't have to like it -- but to call it crap, low, poor quality? I question such a person's musical judgement.
 
I think Elvis wrote some timeless rock tunes. He was a great rock 'n roll tunesmith but he hasn't written anything timeless in at least 20 years. "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace Love and Understanding" still blows the doors off most anything like it. If you don't like that tune you just don't dig rock music -- it's got little to do with Elvis' talent. That record works as well today as it did the day after they cut it.
Nick Lowe wrote that tune.
 
Musicians who have the attitude "Gary Peacock is a fine artist and Elvis Costello is a lowly piece of crap"? The only way I can figure people like that out is using concepts like "small mindedness", "a want of generosity", etc. Open up your ears. You don't have to like it -- but to call it crap, low, poor quality? I question such a person's musical judgement.
Agreed. I like them both for different reasons.

Actually, I think I prefer to listen to more of Costello's work than Peacock. Much of what he works on leaves me scratching my head.
 
Correct. Not an Elvis original and he didn't want to record it.

He is a great lyrisist and has written some great observations on the human condition.

It's pointless comparing him to Gary Peacock or anyone who has taken a different path, but I suspect that he has spend as many hours practicing, creating and putting himself into his art as Mr. Peacock. It's just a different path.

I'm tempted to defend the club owner here, but I don't have the energy for that fruitless argument.
 
Correct. Not an Elvis original and he didn't want to record it.

He is a great lyrisist and has written some great observations on the human condition.

It's pointless comparing him to Gary Peacock or anyone who has taken a different path, but I suspect that he has spend as many hours practicing, creating and putting himself into his art as Mr. Peacock. It's just a different path.

I'm tempted to defend the club owner here, but I don't have the energy for that fruitless argument.

Ah, c'mon Troy, fruit or no fruit, let's go for 50 pages!

But, I'm sure no matter what length a NYC club owner goes to to bring in dollars, it's never enough, having lived in and around NYC for 12 years myself. And judging by the fact that most NY jazz clubs go down mysteriously in flames, and are always well insured for fire, they never plan on getting rich anyway, at least not while the club is actually standing!
 
Musicians who have the attitude "Gary Peacock is a fine artist and Elvis Costello is a lowly piece of crap"? The only way I can figure people like that out is using concepts like "small mindedness", "a want of generosity", etc. Open up your ears. You don't have to like it -- but to call it crap, low, poor quality? I question such a person's musical judgment.

This has been the point that got to me all along. Who is anyone to judge the work of another? Costello's music is what it is, it has touched the lives of many people and continues to do so. Gary Peacock has done and is still doing the same. Both people's music has it's fans and it's detractors and the various opinions have not stopped either person from carrying on.

Just remember, if you can't say anything nice don't say anything.
 
Nick Lowe wrote that tune.

That right, he did, didn't he? Hey, it's been almost 30 years and a lot of neurons have met their maker in that time.

Nick wrote it, but Elvis recorded it and it still shines. But that's just one tune -- from "My Aim Is True" and "Armed Forces" I could pick three or four more at the same level.
 
That right, he did, didn't he? Hey, it's been almost 30 years and a lot of neurons have met their maker in that time.

Nick wrote it, but Elvis recorded it and it still shines. But that's just one tune -- from "My Aim Is True" and "Armed Forces" I could pick three or four more at the same level.
Yes. The first 4 or 5 records he made were outstanding. The writing was witty the music stands up over time. It was far more interesting than the stuff most of his contemporaries were doing at that time.
 
Here's my brief defence of the mythical club owner. Not the Iridium specifically, not over this incident, but this is a whole other argument.

Granted, there are plenty of club owners that I hate. They can be annoying as all get out. I wish that I didn't have to deal with them, but I do. 98% of all of us who are out working do. The other 2% have blissfully graduated.

So, if we take the positions that we are artists and not in business in anyway (which I think has it's flaws, since we're selling our services), the club owner, resturant owner, bar owner, whathaveyou, is not. They're in business to make money. It's actually a very tough business and my fovorite clubs usually close and my favorite club owners usually fail.

But they are there to make money. We help them do that. They don't usually understand us, not really, although they like to think they are cats. Some are better than others, but they're selling drinks and $12 salads and trying not to become a statistic, not experimenting with aux dim scales over dominant chords.

I don't like badgers, but I understand why they are there and am not angry at them because they aren't deer.

If we were in a communist country, we would either be state sponsered artists, who were educated and told what to play for our spot in the bread line or we would be whatever else they told us to be, inspite of our desires to be artists. We're a capitolist country, which means that we can feel how we do about our art, but if we want to do it for money, we have to deal with the machine that converts it to commerce. We don't have to sell our souls or compromise our integrity, but we have to accept that this becomes an act of commerce. Club owners are our mechinism for doing so.

Losing argument among most musicians, I know. I won't argue it with a passion, but there it is.

troy
 
If you don't like that tune you just don't dig rock music

I don't know about that. I can't stand that song, or Elvis Costello for that matter (I wouldn't call him a "lowly piece of crap" though), but I like plenty of rock. That seems to be a personal opinion being put forward as a statement of fact, not unlike "Gary Peacock is a fine artist and Elvis Costello is a lowly piece of crap"
 
Yeah, I was engaging in a little bit of rhetoric there. Of course it's about personal musical taste, and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that anyone's taste is wrong.

"Rock" is a big tent, maybe bigger even than the big tent Duke talked about back in the 40's in relation to jazz. There's lots of space in there.

I'm just reacting to this whole sub-text in this thread of great artists, committed artists, principled artists, worthy of big fees and riders, etc., versus lowly simpleton artists. I used to be a jazz snob in my teens and early 20's. I was such a snob when Elvis came out on the scene. I hated him. Hated the glasses. Hated the use of the name when the real King was fresh in his grave. I was ready, willing and able to Heap Scorn with the best of them. How could Elvis be good when there are Weather Reports in the world? But then something happened. I grew up a bit. I traveled the world a bit. I heard all kinds of stuff. And I started listening to myself more -- I could actually tell if a piece of music was moving me or not! Hey! I don't need anybody else's opinion! And I grew to realize that I dig practically everything at some level. Doesn't mean I wanna spend my time playing just anything -- far from it. But it does mean I feel offended when someone opines Peacock is better than Costello, or operates at some higher level. This is B.S., pure B.S. They are different types of people playing different kinds of music, probably for different reasons. People use their music for different purposes and respond to it in different ways. Sounds like neither one of those artists should have been anywhere near that particular bandstand that night.
 
Yeah, I was engaging in a little bit of rhetoric there. Of course it's about personal musical taste, and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that anyone's taste is wrong.

"Rock" is a big tent, maybe bigger even than the big tent Duke talked about back in the 40's in relation to jazz. There's lots of space in there.

I'm just reacting to this whole sub-text in this thread of great artists, committed artists, principled artists, worthy of big fees and riders, etc., versus lowly simpleton artists. I used to be a jazz snob in my teens and early 20's. I was such a snob when Elvis came out on the scene. I hated him. Hated the glasses. Hated the use of the name when the real King was fresh in his grave. I was ready, willing and able to Heap Scorn with the best of them. How could Elvis be good when there are Weather Reports in the world? But then something happened. I grew up a bit. I traveled the world a bit. I heard all kinds of stuff. And I started listening to myself more -- I could actually tell if a piece of music was moving me or not! Hey! I don't need anybody else's opinion! And I grew to realize that I dig practically everything at some level. Doesn't mean I wanna spend my time playing just anything -- far from it. But it does mean I feel offended when someone opines Peacock is better than Costello, or operates at some higher level. This is B.S., pure B.S. They are different types of people playing different kinds of music, probably for different reasons. People use their music for different purposes and respond to it in different ways. Sounds like neither one of those artists should have been anywhere near that particular bandstand that night.

Well, their respective fields have inherently different mindsets, goals etc.
Comercial pop music is a lot like politics, it takes very dark and shady moves to claw your way to the top.
Just as there are politicians I can respect more than others, same goes for pop musicians, but no one gets near the top with integrity intact.
There is a lot more fame and money at stake so it is all understandable.

While I admit I like very little pop music, I am not as hardline about it as many of my free music peers.
I like good musicianship, and good bass playing, pop music has it's share of those things.

While I wouldn't try to say Elvis is a hack, or that he lacks integrity, his approach took a lot more than just being a good musician.
Image, marketing and all that figures in heavily.
He has done well for himself, the star wife, the millions of dollars,
It is tought to separate those ends to from initial goals.
That he has done all of and maintained a high level of craft and musicianship is where he gets my respect.

A musician like Peacock has a kept a narrow and true focus throughout his career, much more than I have even at this early stage. His intentions are clearly alined with making music and playing the bass in a certain way.
He staked out a certain area to work in and refine and has done an admirable job.
While he has done well with the Standards trio, that is fluke and an anomaly in the world it comes form, where EC's success is fairly standard.

You may not respect his decisions, but expect him to stray from them after sticking to it for 40 years certainly is not reasonable.

I don't think that the two paths are always at odds, but they are certainly not in sync with each other.
A bit like cats and dogs, there are plenty of cat curled up with a dog photos, but having a blanket expectation that any given cat will get along with any given dog is not reasonable.


As far as who belonged on the bandstand, I think Peacock was well suited for that quartet and it was more than likely awesome.
As for fees and riders, we know EC fee is far higher and we can guess his rider is more complicated.
 
But it does mean I feel offended when someone opines Peacock is better than Costello, or operates at some higher level. This is B.S., pure B.S.


+1!!!

A much more direct way of saying what I said on page 2 post #31.


Damon has a differing opinion. Post #21.


But I stand by what I said in Post #26


Read my response carefully. In no way does it imply that there is something wrong with that opinion. It is just a statement of fact.
 
+1!!!

A much more direct way of saying what I said on page 2 post #31.


Damon has a differing opinion. Post #21.


But I stand by what I said in Post #26


Read my response carefully. In no way does it imply that there is something wrong with that opinion. It is just a statement of fact.

Yes, my honest opinion is that musicians like Peacock are going for something I find more worthwhile than pop music, if deep down I felt otherwise I'd have made whole different life decisions.
It does not mean I don't respect some pop musicians.
 
Nobody is going to convince me that Peacock and Costello are artistic equals even if Costello is on the upper end of his Genre. Even if Peacock said it was beneath him, he has that right and that is how he got to be what he is.

Damon. Don't soften your language. This is what you said originally.

Are you now going to a "something I find more worthwhile than pop music" stance?

I'm really just trying to find a way to extend this thread by arguing semantics. ;)