Perfect Tuning is a Mathematical Impossibility

[LBS-bass]

If you took each note even the best fretless player in the world played and analyzed them I doubt they'd be in exact tune. Some times good enough is actually good enough.

Yep, I agree.

 

[justjake]

wow.....you guys make my head hurt. I have to go now and find some more coffee.

 

[levis76]

Aren't jokes supposed to have... oh what's the word... rhythm?

No. That's not it. Where's the line to the punchbowl? I'm not drunk enough for this joke.

Don't drink the kool aid in this thread.

 

[dxb]

Early analog synths sounded better than later digital models because voltage drift in the oscillators made each voice slightly out of tune and gave the synth a warmer and more expressive sound. Modern software synths are often designed to emulate the effect. An exaggerated version of this is also how chorus pedals work.

 

[IamGroot]

Dark energy (The energy of free space, the thing that makes the cosmological constant of Einstein have meaning) has been discussed since about 1999. And it turns out that it's most of what exists in the universe - there's more dark energy than there is dark matter or regular matter.

Yes, dark energy has been discussed for decades. What i am referring to is an internally consistent theory of negative gravity that makes the CF work.
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I remember the college lecture where they explained why negative gravitation was impossible....

 

[Robscott]

OK guys, so what we gonna do about it?????

 

[redwingxix]

Whoa. What happened there? Sorry.

 

[honeyiscool]

That's so funny. This thing about tempered tuning is one of the first things I learned about when I started out in music and it's particularly relevant to piano players. Anyone who has ever tried to tune their own piano will quickly come to realize that there's something wrong, unless they have ears of stone.

I'm a classical pianist by training.

A big difference between a classical pianist and an electric bassist is that classical pianists don't have to learn the mechanics of the instrument. We are not expected to tune or maintain it, and even if it's in poor repair, who cares? Our pianos never go to the gig, anyway. We just learn to play and not worry about the specifics of the instrument. So well-tempered doesn't mean much to a pianist, other than that's what that book of Bach is called that is sort of our bible.

I've been playing since I was 4. I'm a guru at piano by now. Yet I can't tell you the first thing about maintenance but I know almost all aspects of guitar and bass maintenance.

 

[IamGroot]

I'd love to invent a tuning system involving i (square root of -1).

Oh, an imaginary system. Didnt Felix Pappalardi, a dead bassist, do that with "Theme for an Imaginary Western". His wife, unfortunately, was a very real number with complex issues.

 

[IamGroot]

I am enjoying where this thread is going way more than the original joke.

 

[Kro]

^ This is why musicians get a break on the beer prices. It makes intonation discrepencies not as bothersome.

The other night I had my rack up in front of me while I was doing some recording. At one point I made the mistake of being distracted by my tuner mid-way through the track, and I drove myself a little nuts that take.

I ended up propping up my phone in front of my tuner to block it for the next because it was distracting me so much, but I guess some whiskey would have worked just as well.

Sounded fine regardless of the minor discrepancies - good enough for rock and roll!

 

[IamGroot]

I'm a classical pianist by training.

A big difference between a classical pianist and an electric bassist is that classical pianists don't have to learn the mechanics of the instrument. We are not expected to tune or maintain it, and even if it's in poor repair, who cares? Our pianos never go to the gig, anyway. We just learn to play and not worry about the specifics of the instrument. So well-tempered doesn't mean much to a pianist, other than that's what that book of Bach is called that is sort of our bible.

I've been playing since I was 4. I'm a guru at piano by now. Yet I can't tell you the first thing about maintenance but I know almost all aspects of guitar and bass maintenance.

I am studying piano now and loving it.

My pianist friend didnt know acapella and string quartets and some baroque could be non equal tempered. Her perfect world got dented.

 

[brianrost]

So A is the only note with a precisely defined value. All other notes are an approximation to whatever degree of accuracy is desired.

Just because the frequency is not an integer doesn't mean it is not precisely defined.

 

[DirtDog]

So A is the only note with a precisely defined value. All other notes are an approximation to whatever degree of accuracy is desired.

By "precisely defined value" do you mean as a positive integer/whole number?

Since frequency in Hz is measured on an interval/ratio scale, you can get a precisely defined value for a "note" at a suitable level of numerical precision defined by the number of values to the right of the decimal point or significant digits. If A = 440Hz (440.00) and A# = 446.16Hz at 5 signficant digits, both are precise under those conditions.

I play E9 pedal steel, so using straight math to tune this beast is a foolish occupation. Kind of like a 6 string with a whole bunch more wrangly G strings!

 

[DirtDog]

Just because the frequency is not an integer doesn't mean it is not precisely defined.

Great minds and all that!

 

[Ric5]

In Western Music, we most commonly use the Equal Tempered System and the A 440 Hz standard. An octave is an interval where the frequency ratio is 2. An octave is divided into 12 semitones, with two sequential semitones differing by a fixed ratio equal to 2 raised to the 1/12 power.

Two raised to the 1/12 power is an irrational number since 1/12 is irrational . Therefore, any integer power of (2 ^1/12) other than a multiple of 12 is also irrational.

So A is the only note with a precisely defined value. All other notes are an approximation to whatever degree of accuracy is desired.

Play a fretless

 

[Curley Shadow]

There is a theory that vibrato evolved in order to emulate the impossible perfect pitch

 

[Versatek6]

Never having passed a math class I'm more interested in The Implications (if there are any) of the split between math and nature. Einstein had to add a fudge factor to make his theory work but practically, as a trumpet player I'm always needing to use my ears and pull myself flat as I go higher or else I'll wind up too sharp (and why 2 or 3 trumpets work like piano strings, all slightly imperfect making a fat sound) Automatically (in Bb or any tuned brass) A and E in the staff are sharp, and C# and D below then staff are sharper, so that any non beginner horn has a trigger to lengthen the 3rd valve slide and pro horns may trigger the 1st and 3rd valve slides for intonation. That's 2/3 of the valves have slides on them just to stay in tune. Welcome to crazy world.

One more reason to play trombone.

Or slide trumpet.

 

[Morse_77]

If you are really interested in this topic, here's a book that has it all: the math, the history, the myths, and the facts.
I would call it a must-read for any solo fretless/double bass player (or any musician).

Invalid Link Removed

The title is over-dramatic, but it's really well done.

 

[GBBSbassist]

Don't drink the kool aid in this thread.

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