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Perils of using EB amp with DB

Discussion in 'Amps, Mics & Pickups [DB]' started by napabass, Jul 14, 2005.


  1. Electric basser here who is buying an upright. I have an amp. It's a David Eden WT-800. What words of advice would there be for using this with the upright bass? I'm thinking of using K&K Bassmaster Pro. Will the Eden be too powerful or can I simply turn it down? My cab options are Eden 210, 410 and 115. Thanks!

    www.davebuerger.com
     
  2. Eden amps are high quality and the WT800 has one of the best EQ's you can get - you should be able to dial in a good sound on your upright. Start with the EQ flat and Enhance off, and only use the EQ to cut, not boost.
    I use an Eden WT330 with my EUB - it has less EQ control than your amp, but I'm getting exactly the sorts of sounds I want (although because I have a solid-body I'm not dealing with feedback & resonances).
    Your 210 would be the best option. In general, smaller speakers work better with uprights because they have more mid-range clarity and don't create boomy low-end feedback issues.
    Which 210 do you have? The 210XLT has a low-mid hump that could cause problems for URB. Eden's 210XST is smoother and has a very satisfying low end down to 30 Hz.
     
  3. Thanks for the feedback. All my cabs are XLTs. I have seen pro DB players use a 115 cab. Anything to consider about those? Also, the K&K pickup package includes a preamp. Would I need that preamp since the Eden has one built in?
     
  4. Don't know about 15's - I've tended to ignore their existence since I discovered Eden 10's! I'm happy to leave them in the 70's where they belong...

    Piezo pickups vary wildly in output level. The DIY ones I'm putting under the bridge have plenty of output without a preamp but ones that stick onto the bridge usually need an extra gain stage - you'll just have to try it and see. There are are also advantages in having a pre-amp on-board because the very high impedance of piezos makes them lose quality down a long cable.
     
  5. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I tend to agree with the last poster - eden amps are great for DB, I use one for my EUB and I've seen UK pro DBers getting great sounds out them - but the cab is important!!

    Smaller speakers = better

    I like my EA VL208 and have let DB players use it to great effect - whereas, when I plug the same Eden amp into a 1 X 15 cab it sounds dull and like a BG with the highs cut off...?
     
  6. bolo

    bolo

    May 29, 2005
    Apex, NC
    If you're thinking about the K&K Bass Master Pro, you probably want their preamp, because ...

    The preamp that comes with it is a stereo preamp, giving you independent control over volume and EQ for each channel (i.e. the Double Big Twin elements that stick on the bridge in one channel, and the Bass Max element that fits in the wing slot of the bridge in the other channel).

    The K&K preamp does all that, and then feeds the blended stereo signal it into a single 1/4" instrument cable that goes into your amp.
     
  7. I've experimented with many cabinet/head combinations over the years. Lately I've decided to use 15-inch speakers only when playing EB. When using an amplified DB, I now rely exclusively on 12-inch speakers (GK or Flite). The 15-inch speakers just sound too "boomy" for my DB tastes.

    But I will try out 10-inchers down the road!
     
  8. macmrkt

    macmrkt Banned

    Dec 4, 2002
    In my long road towards getting the sound I want for DB, I started with a Navigator/WT1000 running into twin 210XST's. I found that a tiny Acoustic Image Coda amp sounded better to my ears in a small room at low to medium volumes. I didn't pull that Eden rig apart and try the electronics with different speakers. I eventually ended up with Acoustic Image heads and have been through many different cabinets with small drivers (I can give you details if you want). However, the Eden stuff is great when used in the right situation. And there's no question that the Bass Master Pro would be my choice for a pickup - it's tone character should be ideal for Eden. This is a combo I never tried, having come to the Bass Master Pro long after I sold off my Edens - I bet you'll like it.
     
  9. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Perils? You mean like explosions or wood gremlins?Or the dreaded Music Police?

    The one point I would like to humbly remind you about is that you are playing a different instrument, not just a bigger funnier electric bass. The tendency that all of us had, when making the transition from electric to upright, was to try to overcome what we perceived as a lack of focus or definition in the sound we were hearing coming out of the amp by changing things - speakers, amps, EQs, strings, pickups, twirling knobs, buying stomp boxes. As Rufus Reid so cogently says; if you have a small, unfocused, weak acoustic sound when playing unamplified, ALL you will get when you plug in is a LOUDER small, weak, unfocused sound. Despite the Amazing Wonderfulness of your amplifier, I highly recommend using it as little as possible when you start playing upright. Certainly any practicing you do should be acoustic, I recommend trying rehearsals sans amp as well. Especially if you are playing jazz at all, you may even want to try duo and trio gigs without amplification, if the room supports it. Having a teacher who will help you develop a good, relaxed physical approach is important- playing with a solid, focused, projecting sound isn't really about playing harder, it's about playing smarter.

    I understand that if you are playing primarily amplified music (rockabilly, Chicago blues, etc.) that gigging unamplified may not be an option. BUT getting the projection and volume levels you need WITHOUT feedback is going to be easier with a STRONG ACOUSTIC SOUND as the foundation.
     
  10. anonymous0726

    anonymous0726 Guest

    Nov 4, 2001
    In brief, what Ed is saying is: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
     
  11. macmrkt

    macmrkt Banned

    Dec 4, 2002
    Ed's right of course...and IMHO this is what makes these forums so valuable. I started with EUB's and Eden with low 'action' and soft strings and now I also play a gut strung bass with a mic! I wouldn't have ever thought I could "go acoustic" unless I was exposed to these concepts. But with a little time and effort, as well as some all-acoustic playing (note: this requires players who can handle dynamics), I did. Not that I'm giving up on my lower string height, steel stringed, piezo equipped basses, it's just that I have options.
     
  12. I don't think anyone will argue with that.
     
  13. anonymous0726

    anonymous0726 Guest

    Nov 4, 2001
    Also, my preferences as far as cabinets always find their way back to 12" drivers. No tweeters, co-ax speakers or other novelites. 10" speakers accentuate everything ugly about the sound (especially piezo) and give me what sounds like a a discotheque mix once you have the 'nasty' dialed out; all low end and high end and weak-ass midrange. 15"ers are too sloppy for me. With 12" cabs I find I have a lot less EQ tweaking.

    I also, after long bouts of fussing around, don't like a HiFi sound on stage as it rarely translates into the room. I'll deal with some ugly close up if I know that what I want is happening where it's most important.
     
  14. bolo

    bolo

    May 29, 2005
    Apex, NC
    I think I know what you mean by this Ray.

    For example, I have learned to tolerate a little edge in my sound up close, with the understanding that it's probably a necessary evil if you want to project something other than mud and mush out into the room.

    But it is kind of frustrating when nobody in the room cares, and the only people who do care are you, the drummer next to you, and your bandmates. In that case, I almost feel like I want the band to hear my hi-fi sound, and care somewhat less about the audience. I mean sometimes they only seem to notice the musicians when we stop playing.

    Then again ... You never know who will be out in that room, eh? I was doing a regular gig in Raleigh once, only to find out after the first or second set that Grady Tate was in the audience. He was in town to receive some type of award, and stopped by to have dinner and listen to some live music.

    We asked, but Grady didn't want to sit in on drums. But he did get up and sing 'My Funny Valentine' with us backing him.

    So like I said ... You never know who's gonna be out there listenin'. So your sound out in the room better be happenin'!

    P.S. Uh, no, Grady didn't ask me to come on the road with him.
     
  15. shwashwa

    shwashwa

    Aug 30, 2003
    NJ
    all that's true, but if you're going to use and electric bass guitar amp, just remember one thing: use a preamp first. the bg amp isnt designed to handle the impedeance from the piezo, so if you dont use a preamp first you wont be getting the most from your rig. you'll probably get a pretty funny sound actually. a preamp designed for piezo's should allow you to use pretty much any amp with decent results provided your bass sounds good.
     
  16. The Bass Master Pro includes a preamp. I presume it does things for bass tone that the Eden cannot. I bet the Eden will reflect whatever comes through the BMP preamp if I set amp EQ mostly flat. That's one of the things I like most about Eden: it does not interfere with the sound of the instrument.
     
  17. bolo

    bolo

    May 29, 2005
    Apex, NC
    True, almost. The BMP comes with a stereo preamp, so you can't use just any old preamp. This is so you can independently control the EQ and levels for (a) the Double Big Twin transducers stuck to the bridge, and (b) the Bass Max transducers that fit in the wing slot ... and then have it all fed into a single 1/4" cable that plugs into your amp.

    [ Bob G., please bail me out here if I am all wet ... ]

    The D-TAR Solstice would be another option for a preamp I suppose. The manual says if you plug a stereo (TRS) 1/4" instrument cable just like the one that comes with the BMP into either channel, it will magically split the channels in two for you, as long as the inputs for the other channel are not occupied. I haven't tried it with my Solstice, but apparently the capability is there.
     
  18. shwashwa

    shwashwa

    Aug 30, 2003
    NJ
    not really.. the eden probably has much more sophisticated tone circuts than the bmp preamp. i would probably set the bmp preamp flat and do all my eqing from the eden since it's more sophicated. the bmp pro preamp is a necessary first step because the eden needs to have a signal that it can process. the eden is designed to receive signals from magnetic pickups, not piezo, so you wont get optimal results without the preamp. just use the preamp to process the signal and match impedeances, and do you tone control from the eden. i think it will work fine.
     
  19. Theoretically piezos need a buffering preamp because of their very high impedance - if you run high impedance signal down a long cable (or a cheap one with high capacitance) you will lose some of the high frequencies.
    However, piezos on a bass are usually way too bright anyway, so it may actually help to run without a preamp. Try it and see.
     
  20. luknfur

    luknfur

    Jan 14, 2004
    DIXIE
    FWIW:

    Here's a good thread on piezo's.

    http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184648&highlight=piezo