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Phantom fundamentals and 5th string

J

JonLM

Jan 5, 2018
14
3
#1
Hi,
I would like to know, if a standard tuned 4 string can reproduce 62 Hz and the fundamental of the 5th string (31Hz) cannot be heard, why we cannot tweak some knobs, process the signal and get that low and powerful sound?
Theoretically, we could just enhance those low overtones and we will get there.
If it's not done, there will be a reason, but it would be great if somebody could enlighten us.
Thanks,
Jon.
 
#2
What kind of amp are you using? Most amp heads have a "bass" control that boosts the bottom frequencies, for a "low and powerful sound." If you need more control, you can add an EQ pedal to your signal chain. The popular MXR 10-band EQ (for example) has a 31.25hz slider for your low B fundamental.
 
#3
Hi,
Actually, I'm not interested in the fundamental, neither I have a low B.
I would like to know, if the emulation with EADG standard tuning can be done with a EQ and other devices(no octaver, I'm not lloking for the fundamental).
Because, theoretically it doesn't seem to be a great challenge.
Thanks for the response.
 
#4
If I understand your question correctly: There are two ways to play low B on a 4 string bass. The first method is to use an octaver or drop pedal. The second method is to detune the strings. I hope that helps?
 
#5
Hi,
I don't want to play the Low B, I just want to emulate how it sounds.
The Low B fundamental it's barely reproduced and heard. It's the overtones that make that sound. But, as a EADG 4 string has those overtones, theoretically we could boost that frequency range and we won't need a 5th string.
This is not done, or at least I haven't found anything about it, and I would like to know the reason.
 
#6
I think you are talking about a high-pass filter (HPF)? This will attenuate the fundamental frequencies, so the overtones are more prominent.

Lots of info here: High Pass Filter (HPF) and Low Pass Filter (LPF) Mega Thread

Another popular technique is to play a root-5th double-stop called a "power chord." For example if you play B and F# together, it can kind of trick your ear into hearing a "phantom" low B. Power chords are very popular in "heavy" genres of music, for this reason.
 
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#7
I'm saying the opposite. I don't have the 31Hz fundamental on my 4-string, I want the 62Hz to be prominent (my fundamental). So a HPF wouldn't work, maybe LPF, but in metal I want those grindy highs.
The power chord thing is interesting because you get back the odd harmonics of the low B fundamental. Because the 62Hz has only the even harmonics.
Thanks.
 
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#9
Mushroo said:
Another popular technique is to play a root-5th double-stop called a "power chord." For example if you play B and F# together, it can kind of trick your ear into hearing a "phantom" low B. Power chords are very popular in "heavy" genres of music, for this reason.
Click to expand...

Taking advantage of the beat frequency is a cool thing. The guy who works on my keys folds back the 5th onto the root to give the sub-octave on his spinet Hammonds.

for those that don't get beat frequency, it's the difference between two tones. If you ever tune with harmonics (5th & 7th frets) you're using beat frequency. The fundamental and fifth has a special beat frequency. The fifth is 1.5 times the fundamental. So if you're playing A1 (55Hz) and the fifth above that is E2 (~82.5Hz) , the beat frequency is 27.5Hz, which is A0. So it gives the sound of a full octave lower. In actuality, E2 is 82.41, so your beat frequency is slightly sharp.
 
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#10
Frank Tuesday said:
Taking advantage of the beat frequency is a cool thing. The guy who works on my keys folds back the 5th onto the root to give the sub-octave on his spinet Hammonds.

for those that don't get beat frequency, it's the difference between two tones. If you ever tune with harmonics (5th & 7th frets) you're using beat frequency. The fundamental and fifth has a special beat frequency. The fifth is 1.5 times the fundamental. So if you're playing A1 (55Hz) and the fifth above that is E2 (~82.5Hz) , the beat frequency is 27.5Hz, which is A0. So it gives the sound of a full octave lower. In actuality, E2 is 82.41, so your beat frequency is slightly sharp.
Click to expand...

That's really interesting!
Thank you.
 
#11
JonLM said:
Hi,
I don't want to play the Low B, I just want to emulate how it sounds.
The Low B fundamental it's barely reproduced and heard. It's the overtones that make that sound. But, as a EADG 4 string has those overtones, theoretically we could boost that frequency range and we won't need a 5th string.
This is not done, or at least I haven't found anything about it, and I would like to know the reason.
Click to expand...

The EADG four string does not exhibit the same overtone series in the needed balance, unfortunately.
 
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#13
JonLM said:
Thanks for the answer.
Click to expand...

It's been at least a decade since I measured a bunch of 4 stringers for the "waterfalls" thread, but I never did test any 5ers back then. In the last few months I saw a nice analysis on just what you're asking somewhere on TB, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it again. I'll give it a shot later today.
Yel_wink.gif
 
#14
Passinwind said:
The EADG four string does not exhibit the same overtone series in the needed balance, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
I agree. EADG tuning with good amplification can certainly reproduce 62Hz, but a B1 with the 62Hz fundamental well reproduced by amplification is not the same as a low B0 with the fundamental not reproduced by amplification, because the frequencies of the harmonics are different:

Harmonic frequencies for B1 with a well reproduced 62Hz fundamental:
62 * 1
62 * 2
62 * 3
62 * 4
62 * 5
...

Harmonic frequencies for B0 with the 31Hz fundamental not reproduced:
31 * 2
31 * 3
31 * 4
31 * 5
...

There are some shared frequencies but most are different.

Even if the fundamental of B0 is not reproduced, the pattern of harmonics is recognised by the brain and it 'hears' the missing 31 * 1 Hz. So 1 or more lower harmonics can be missing but the frequency of the fundamental is still experienced as 31Hz.
This is why very low F#0 23Hz and C#0 17Hz strings are heard as those frequencies despite the lowest 1 or 2 harmonics not being reproduced by amplification.
 

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