Philosophy: Do I really NEED a FRETLESS bass?

[basspraiser]

If you can afford it, get it.

Fretless bass is a wonderful sound, but it's worth getting someone who knows what they're doing to have a look at the bass, do a setup, and make sure your strings are appropriate for what you're trying to achieve. I mucked around on a fretless for months trying to work out why I wasn't getting a Jaco 'mwah' - turns out the strings were too dull and too high, and I was getting more of a flatwound thump than anything.

Anyway, fretless can add something special to a lot of tunes, especially ballads (for some reason I've got that Dream Theatre track in my head) and acoustic tracks (think Joni Mitchell). Also great for bouncy walking bass and stuff. And, of course, solo work.

Check out Gary Willis, Tony Franklin, Jaco's work with Joni Mitchell (IMO his best playing), and for something different check out Juan Alderete of The Mars Volta - his playing on 'The Widow' really stands out.

I agree on the set up.....that is key!
The set up protocol is very different.....you need a luthier who knows this

I totally agree on the ballad comment.....I used my mwah on the slow or melodic songs more than on the rocking stuff.....when I play a fretless on a rocker I make it sound more like a fretted bass

Fretless basses have their place....in my opinion it all comes down to funding for you at this point

 

[basspraiser]

Playing fretless is a lot of fun - they can be very expressive. I had two (Pedulla ThunderBolt 5 and Lakland 55-94), but sold them because I wasn't using them at gigs. I may pick up another one some day. If you can afford the scratch, I'd say go for it.

Munji speaks logic...as always!

 

[KingLucCole]

The answer to this question depends on where you're at with your experience and gear in music. A couple of things need to be answered first: 1.) What kind of fretted bass are you actually using right now? 2.) What kind of amp are you using? 3.) How experienced are you with the standard, fretted bass? 4.) You mentioned you do guitar as well, so are you more interested in recording your material or gigging out professionally?

The reason I say this is because at some point, you're going to have to prioritize. If you aren't all that knowledgeable with the instrument you have, then hold off. If you're primary bass is somehow, "second rate," then it's more important to invest in a more professional instrument. If you have an amp that is on the cheaper and tinier side, then it's more important to invest in a better amp. If you're more interested in doing recording than you are in gigging, then I would say screw it to a new amp OR a new instrument, and buy a CountryMan DI for about $200, because those will last you a lifetime (note: for some venues, you can use your DI at a gig too. Make sure it's a CountryMan though. Everything else is just garbage). Point being, if these other -more important needs- haven't been satisfied, then getting a fretless bass is just going to be a novelty.

Cheers!
-L

 

[coyote1]

I agree on the set up.....that is key!
The set up protocol is very different.....you need a luthier who knows this

ummm... The setup of a fretless is far easier. First off, you can set the scale length anywhere within the travel of the bridge/saddles. Second, if the neck relief is good you just take the action as low or high as is comfortable for you.

Note: my fretless is unlined. No way I'd get a fretless with fret lines. It's a silly concept; you should not be looking at the fingerboard as you play. How can you read the chart or look at the conductor if you are looking at the fingerboard?? You should be focusing on developing your listening skills so you can hear whether your intonation is good.

 

[KingLucCole]

ummm... The setup of a fretless is far easier. First off, you can set the scale length anywhere within the travel of the bridge/saddles. Second, if the neck relief is good you just take the action as low or high as is comfortable for you.

Note: my fretless is unlined. No way I'd get a fretless with fret lines. It's a silly concept; you should not be looking at the fingerboard as you play. How can you read the chart or look at the conductor if you are looking at the fingerboard?? You should be focusing on developing your listening skills so you can hear whether your intonation is good.

*shrug* Yes, that's a good skill to have, but a lot of gigging type players aren't working with sheet music or conductors, so... don't call lined fretless basses a silly concept. There are a few players that are far more renowned than both of us who have lined fretless basses, Claypool himself being one of them. On that note, if you're focusing entirely on sheet music and conductors, I would venture to say that you're not doing all that much improvising, which -if you're really going balls out with it- you will have to look at what you're doing. Even legends like Clarke, Wooten, Pastorious, oh... you know... like, EVERY virtuoso... is looking at what they're doing from time to time.

 

[JACink]

Note: my fretless is unlined. No way I'd get a fretless with fret lines. It's a silly concept; you should not be looking at the fingerboard as you play. How can you read the chart or look at the conductor if you are looking at the fingerboard?? You should be focusing on developing your listening skills so you can hear whether your intonation is good.

I'm sorry that you feel that it is a silly concept, but having lines on my fretboard gave me the confidence to actually start playing fretless, and nobody says you have to look at them!!

 

[punkjazzben]

ummm... The setup of a fretless is far easier. First off, you can set the scale length anywhere within the travel of the bridge/saddles. Second, if the neck relief is good you just take the action as low or high as is comfortable for you.

Note: my fretless is unlined. No way I'd get a fretless with fret lines. It's a silly concept; you should not be looking at the fingerboard as you play. How can you read the chart or look at the conductor if you are looking at the fingerboard?? You should be focusing on developing your listening skills so you can hear whether your intonation is good.

Far easier... on the condition that you have enough knowledge and experience to set the intonation appropriately for your playing and needs, along with the action, and if you can recognize when a neck needs adjustments. Get any of these wrong and you won't have a great experience with your new fretless.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with lined. It's good for learning. When I was learning I looked at the fretboard on a fretted bass, and now I don't need to. That's the way it works. The lines aren't there to look at; theyre there to guide you when needed.

 

[Davo-London]

Do you need a fretless? No

Should you get a fretless? Yes

Davo

 

[MD]

Sometimes I wonder why I still keep my fretted basses.

 

[JacoNOT]

OP here. I'm soaking up your comments like some gigantic SPONGE. Thanks. I typically interact with everyone who posts to my thread, but In this case, I'm saying NOTHING because I'm learning/benefiting from every post and don't want to influence anything.

I would like to ask this question, though:

What type of neck relief is required for fretless bass generally? Dead FLAT?

Also, do I need to set the lowest possible action/string height?

The user manual for my fretted bass (LTD B-205sm) suggests neck relief of .010" to .020". It's currently set to .013". Strings feel slightly high and there's still a little occassional buzzing. The fretless will be indentical, minus the frets, so I assume setup results will be similar (but with no possibility for high frets to complicate matters )

 

[JACink]

Although I am no expert, I would definately suggest trial and error. Everyone is different and prefers different heights, and also you will get pretty good at set up!!

 

[unclejane]

THE BIG QUESTION:
Will the uniqueness and versatility of FRETLESS be wasted (go unnoticed):
1) If the bass stays in it's traditional rhythm section role in the mix, and
2) If I'm merely proficient, not a standout fretless player?

My current fretted bass is already helping me hear and write musical passages that are very different from what I do on guitar. Do you guys think the extended capabilities of the fretless bass would be even more inspiring (it's almost a "vocal" sound sometimes)? Or am I just getting carried away with "buying basses"?

Thanks

In my experience, the most significant bennies of going fretless have been:
- better tone. Personally, i've never been able to make a fretted bass sound good - I just don't have the strength or whatever it is you need to pound on the things hard enough to get a good sound out of them. With the FL, I hardly need to pluck it at all to get a good, round pop that can be heard without turning everything up to 11.
- more control. On the fretted, you don't much need to get past landing somewhere on the board such that the string gets fretted at the desired fret. In fact, you're stuck with it - the intonation and tone are the same no matter how skillfully (or not) you fret the string. (PS: not that that's necessarily a bad thing - lots of instruments have fixed intonation like the guitar, piano, etc. I just mean it's different really. Just sounds like I was saying 'bad bad bad', which I don't really mean). On the FL, though, the goal isn't just to land your finger in the right spot - instead, the idea is listen/correct/listen/correct/repeat. This is an almost completely different technique. But the advantage is significantly more control over the sound, intonation in particular.

So, I'd say only in situations where these advantages make a difference will it not be a waste - well I wouldn't even say "waste" but maybe "unappreciated" . Probably doing traditional rhythm playing, the FL won't buy you too terribly much in terms of the final outcome. OTOH, it will buy you a lot in terms of overall musicianship, I think. In particular, learning to listen/correct is an amazing upgrade, or at least it has been for me. But depending on the musical style, FL may or may not really be an advantage...

LS

 

[unclejane]

I would like to ask this question, though:

What type of neck relief is required for fretless bass generally? Dead FLAT?

Also, do I need to set the lowest possible action/string height?

You set up the FL basically the same way you set up the fretted. Once you've gotten the nut height and action at the heel where you want it and you're at the relief-setting stage, it's pretty much the same procedure. Adjust the releif for the desired action up and down the board.

Do NOT measure anything - this will only send you to the rubber room. Instead, only adjust the relief until the action and sound is the way you like it. This is a personal preference thing - some players like a huge "ski-jump" in the middle of the board and some (like myself) prefer a virtually flat fingerboard...
So just adjust the relief to suit you...

LS

 

[basspraiser]

ummm... The setup of a fretless is far easier. First off, you can set the scale length anywhere within the travel of the bridge/saddles. Second, if the neck relief is good you just take the action as low or high as is comfortable for you.

Note: my fretless is unlined. No way I'd get a fretless with fret lines. It's a silly concept; you should not be looking at the fingerboard as you play. How can you read the chart or look at the conductor if you are looking at the fingerboard?? You should be focusing on developing your listening skills so you can hear whether your intonation is good.

Well I disagree with your comment that the lined neck is silly. I think that comment is narrow minded and silly

Mine are lined....do I look at them? not always....but they are a good guide..and help out. I am working on looking at them less and less...I think they are a good training tool for new fretless players to learn intonation etc.

Also I am not quite so sure on your comment that the set up is easier.......there are stll alot of variables based on style etc.

 

[JTE]

Do YOU "need" a fretless? I dunno...

I know I NEED a fretless however. It's just a vital part of my voice to me. YMMV.

Regarding lines/no lines. Lines help people starting off to get the first 98% of your intonation down faster, but they're not going to let you play accurately in tune.

They're certainly not "silly" at all. While I'd rather have an unlined fretless, my favorite fretless has lines. That's only because the used Lakland 4-94 fretless that came available when I was in a position to spend that kind of money happened to have lines. I've played fretless since 1987 on an unlined fingerboard. Having lines is not a distraction, and has been a help way up high were I don't really need to play much, but it's still a visual "I'm in the right area" indicator, not a precise "put it here" indicator.

There are some silly things in the bass world (excessive cable claim hype, assuming a 15" speaker has more bass than a 10" speaker, etc.) but lines on a fingerboard aren't silly. More a matter of taste. I despise blocks 'n' binding on bass necks, but they're not silly.

John

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Fretless basses can also take a much lower action than fretted can.

 

[caeman]

I switched to fretless a couple years ago and haven't looked back. I like being able to slide cleanly to the next note on the same string if it aids the sound. I started on a converted bass, so it had fret lines. I like playing fretless because of the freedom of the sound, so I am content to stay with lined fretless. I don't play them for other people's approval. I bought a Gretsch G2202 and defretted it myself and it now my primary electric.

 

[bassbenj]

Well I disagree with your comment that the lined neck is silly. I think that comment is narrow minded and silly

Mine are lined....do I look at them? not always....but they are a good guide..and help out. I am working on looking at them less and less...I think they are a good training tool for new fretless players to learn intonation etc.

I also don't agree a lined fretless is "silly". But I do think an unlined bass is better to learn on if you can. The reason is that while lines are a help for the beginner, later when you've outgrown lines you start to wish your bass didn't have them to give it a better "look".


One of the deals is that when you stand playing bass you can't see the lines anyway. So lines are mostly a sit-down practice thing. And what they do for you is allow you to train yourself out of the habit of playing across the neck at a slight angle. Frets are perpendicular to the neck and I found it took a bit of practice to not sort of tilt your hand and play at an angle. But as I said, once you are standing you have to rely on you ears and the side markers anyway.

Even though I don't make a big deal out of lined or unlined. (I bought my first fretless lined to help me learn but later wished I hadn't) I have a few basses both lined and unlined. Mostly bought used so it was the choice of previous owners not me. I don't sweat it.

On the other hand good side markers are a great help to playing. Hard to see ones (like the dark brass ones on my Alembic) are a pain. LEDs are really wonderful as markers but usually as sold now they are too bright in my opinon. So do check your side markers for visibility and being ON the fretlines. Some older bases (especially with fretlines) have markers BETWEEN fretlines and you DO NOT want to have to deal with that if you can avoid it.

 

[JimmyM]

I would never play a fretless without lines, it's ridiculous to expect someone to never look at their neck when they play (I have seen the best bassists in the world do it), and I always have to laugh when someone thinks any of this stuff relates to professionalism.

 

[caeman]

At a local music store, Norm Stockton and Frank Russell were giving a chat on bass playing, as well as demonstrating bass playing. They looked at their fret boards. I watched these two play for an hour and it was amazing stuff. I figure if these working professional look at their fret boards, then a schlep like me can look at his fret board.