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Philosophy: Do I really NEED a FRETLESS bass?

As far as the lined/unlined look/don't look controversy....

Do what works for you and always try to get better.

I recently (about a month ago) bought my first fretless (yes it's lined!) and I love it. I'm not planning on playing my fretted anymore. Matter of fact, I have a 16 year old that suddenly thinks playing the bass would be cool, so he has inherited it.

As a longtime musician (25 years) the fret lines are some help, but my ear is far more effective. Depending where you are on the neck, the lines can sometimes be more of a hindrance. All that being said, it does provide a quick point of reference.

If you've got the cash, buy it. If things are tight....fretless basses will always be around. I bought a pretty good one (Squire VM with EMGHZ's) for cheap ($150!) used and I love it. It cost me less than my fretted and I love it.

For the record, Jaco is my inspiration as well. I know I'll never solo like him, but a lot of his groove is very reproducible. For me it's just been a blast since I bought it. So...if you can afford it, why not? Enjoy the ride, you only go around once!
 
armybass said:
No! I was an upright bass major in college and have played fretless for decades and I can honestly say that as much as I like having one....it has NEVER been necessary. I have been mainly playing in 10 pc horn bands and acoustic trios where I sing and there are just too too many pitch variables in my playing situations for me to focus on constantly playing in tune. If there were not horns or if I did not have to sing....I would probably use it a lot more....but for me ..... it has never been a necessity....now playing and having an upright is totally different story.

I can imagine the singing getting in the way but to me the hornsection is a pre: you can always blame the trombone :)
 
"OMG he's saying we can become better at what we do if we practice something! HOW DARE HE!!" lol

No doubt there have already been complaints to the mods about my posting my opinion on reliance on fretlines on a fretless :eek:


PS - the above starred-out word is a real word, used in a real adult context. Yet it has to be starred-out... it fascinates me that a MUSIC site, of all places, stars out that word given how it is common music usage for "slow the tempo". What a world.

Your starred out word is so common that I honestly have no idea what it might be! But then all my early musical experience was in public school bands and choirs and all my later experience has been in church choirs and, very recently, worship bands. I'm guessing your word, whatever it is, would be very out of place in those contexts. TB is a place where anyone can play, so it is G rated. It doesn't bother me and it should not bother you. It doesn't hurt to play nice once in a while. :D

Keep in mind that you are probably getting less reaction to the substance of your opinions than to the force with which you express them. Making them sound like absolutes is bound to attract opposition. Any musician worth his/her salt is going to oppose the notion that this must be done my way and no other! All my experience with playing clarinet though would support the underlying value that you assign to learning to read music and to play without being dependent on watching your hands. Every minute that you spend not looking at the fret/finger-board is a minute you can devote to looking at the music or the other band members, or in situations like a worship band where there is one, the director.

How does a bass guitar player learn to read music when so little of the common BG material has been published in standard musical notation? I don't really know. I learned to read music as a clarinetist. I have yet to be given a piece of worship music with a written out bass part. It is all chord sheets that you follow and fake a part from. Sometimes the chords are written over standard musical staffs but those parts are for other instruments, piano most commonly. The only "written out" part I ever get is the practice mp3s which you can mimic by ear if you are able.

I'm not scheduled for a worship service until June 17 now and the music list for that service has not been released yet so my practice time is a free choice at the moment. Especially since I tuned my bass CGDA I have started to dabble in cello music that is often public domain and freely downloaded from the internet. So last night I was starting to learn a cello piece and you are certainly right, it is an enormous advantage to be able to sit in front of a piece of music and play the notes without watching your fingers all the time. Instead of watching your fingers you are reading ahead and planning out how to finger the next run of notes. It is a valuable skill indeed.

Playing without fretlines is probably not as valuable, in fact, once you have learned to play without watching your fingers the fretlines don't really matter, do they? But if you play without fretlines and concentrate on listening to the notes you play instead it probably does encourage you to play notes in tune, rather than to play the notes that the fretlines define. Both frets and fretlines are put in the standard, even tempered, positions. When you play with other instruments that are locked into even tempered note spacings then those are the notes that you almost always going to want to play. But when you play with a vocalist or a string section you have the freedom on a fretless bass to play perfect intervals to match the musicians you are accompanying and in that case your ear will get you where you need to be whereas fretlines will only get you into the general vicinity. But fretlines do not of themselves prevent you from playing in tune. You just need to move beyond them once you start to get the hang of playing fretless.

Even so, I see no problem with watching your hands occasionally. I do it when I am fingering an intricate run that I know I will have trouble with if I don't. Sometimes I do it just because it is fun to watch your fingers do their magic. I watch the string player's fingers at orchestral concerts all the time for that reason, after all. I guess it goes beyond that now that I tune my bass like a cello, I suddenly have a professional interest in watching how the cellists finger their parts. :D So on the one hand I feel uncomfortable with opposing your stance on these issues while on the other hand I am just as uncomfortable with issuing them as absolute decrees as you have tended to do. Music is organic, not mechanical. Listen to your peers, take their notions to heart, but make them your own, don't become a slave to them.

Ken
 
The word in question would not be out of place in any context where someone needs a synonym for slowing down. The musical symbol for it looks like this:
r i t . . . . . . .

It is a G-rated word. lol

Your starred out word is so common that I honestly have no idea what it might be! TB is a place where anyone can play, so it is G rated. It doesn't bother me and it should not bother you. It doesn't hurt to play nice once in a while. :D

Keep in mind that you are probably getting less reaction to the substance of your opinions than to the force with which you express them. Making them sound like absolutes is bound to attract opposition. Any musician worth his/her salt is going to oppose the notion that this must be done my way and no other!

I did not say "you must never look at the fingerboard". I provided what I have found to be a useful guideline, along with some eminently rational reasons for it. My fretless does have top markings (3,5,7,octave etc) and I do occasionally look at it, such as before I am about to play, to get to where I need to be. But once the first note in any contiguous series of notes is struck, I am looking at the music. If I have questions about my intonation, I rely on my ears to guide my adjustment.

I'll provide one more thought on this. Have any of you ever been in a situation where the guitarist is playing a solo.... and everyone in the band knows the solo is done, everyone in the audience knows the solo is done, but the guitarist just won't stop playing the damn solo? And you can't get his attention without the drummer throwing a stick at him? THAT is what happens when musicians look at the fingerboard. It kills band communication. Music is supposed to be communication. Among band members, there needs to be the ability to get each others' attention without embarrassing each other in front of an audience.
 
...I did not say "you must never look at the fingerboard"...

Way back on page 2, you wrote:

Note: my fretless is unlined. No way I'd get a fretless with fret lines. It's a silly concept; you should not be looking at the fingerboard as you play. How can you read the chart or look at the conductor if you are looking at the fingerboard?? You should be focusing on developing your listening skills so you can hear whether your intonation is good.

True, you did not use the word "never", but "should not" is fairly demonstrative of a statement, that is equivalent of "never". ;)

But, I think the video evidence we have displayed sufficiently challenged the initial assertion. :D

To the original topic at hand, I still think that if a bassist wants to be a complete musician, and not "just a bass player", it is wise to be familiar with fretted and fretless, with and without effects and some knowledge of music theory. The musician needs to look past brands and labels, to the sound of things, and understand how those sounds are made, and how to bend them to your will, regardless of the instrument you pick up.
 
Point of interest..."r e t a r d" is not what's used in music. "Ritard" with an I is what's used.

OK, I guess I am just slow today, I should have been able to understand what word coyote1 was talking about. I was thinking it was some kind of smoky jazz club foul slang, not an actual musical term, I guess. So yeah it would help if you spell it correctly in this context but on the other hand when it is spelled with an "e" it is also a perfectly valid, polite English word meaning to slow down or hold back something. Music uses the Italian spelling, the English spelling should be allowed here too though. For example, though you may not agree with the statement, it is perfectly polite in this discussion to say that "I believe the reliance on fretlines will ****** your development as a fretless bassist." I presume the nanny-ware will star out the "offending" word in that sentence.

Ken
 
I'm not going to disagree with anything you said there...except Coyote's wack statement. I don't get how anyone could say that fretlines ****** your development as a fretless bassist when the world's most renowned fretless bassist had fretlines.
 
Find me one double bassist, cellist, violist, or violinist in any orchestra that is looking at their fingerboard while playing. Find me one pit orchestra bassist or guitarist that is looking at the fingerboard of their instrument while performing a show. Do trombonists look at how far they've moved the slide to determine what note they are playing?

Currently I'm making a bit of a push to get very familiar with my Conklin GT7 as a two-handed tapping instrument. I'm using the RealBook (standard G clef version), working my way through the chords page after page. And trying to gradually work in chords, chord melodies, and straight melodies with my right hand while improvising basslines on those chords with the left. It would not be possible to do that while looking at the fingerboard.

Obviously, if you are performing the same dozen songs at every gig you need not look at a page of music. But bear this in mind the next time you complain that your band can't get bookings and that those bar gigs ain't paying much: If you could read, your chances of getting good-paying work would immediately soar. Becoming dependent upon gazing at the fingerboard eliminates that possibility.

I don't look at the fingerboard but I do use the dots when making position shifts on my unlined fretless.

I also stole a tip from Steve Bailey (I think it was) who on one of his videos basically said when he reads he positions the music stand to his left so he can see the music AND the neck at the same time. I do that when reading for bass or guitar.


To the OP one of the biggest benefits of playing fretless is that it really opens your ears. You have to actively listen and in my opinion be much more engaged in what everyone else is doing or you're on a one way trip to intonation disasters.

With the exception of about 30 minutes worth of 80s rock - stuff by Blondie, the Cars, U2, Talking Heads etc - that I do on a Fender Jazz, I do everything on my fretless. Couldn't be happier.

As far as lines go. Go for it. I choose unlined but that's a asthetic choice for me.

Flats or Tapewounds? I kinda like Fender Tapewounds myself.
 
It depends on how well you can sense where you are on the fingerboard without looking (kinesthesia). Electric is harder than standup to nail a pitch out of the blue on because you can probably point to your mouth or chin or belly button, all vertical points of reference, but there are no such reference points hanging in the air next to your body as you extend your arm outwards. So borrow one, or go to a shop and try some fretlesses out for a few days running. If you don't make any progress, maybe it's not for you.
 
It depends on how well you can sense where you are on the fingerboard without looking (kinesthesia). Electric is harder than standup to nail a pitch out of the blue on because you can probably point to your mouth or chin or belly button, all vertical points of reference, but there are no such reference points hanging in the air next to your body as you extend your arm outwards. So borrow one, or go to a shop and try some fretlesses out for a few days running. If you don't make any progress, maybe it's not for you.
I never thought of that. My intonation on upright is not superb but it's pretty good for someone who's never had a lesson on it. My intonation on fretless at home when I can concentrate is pretty good, but on a gig it's wack. Invariably, it lasts 2 or 3 songs and I run screaming for the fretted.
 
Lately, I've been having a hard time making up my mind about the fate of my first bass, a mid-80s MIJ (fretted) Jazz. I play it occasionally (so I'll remember how) and so it can function as a backup/alternative to my fretless.

When I bring the Jazz to band rehearsal, everyone says they miss the fretless. When I pick up the fretless after playing the Jazz, I feel like I missed it, too. It just feels *so much better* in my hands and ears.

I ponder getting an inexpensive fretless (e.g. Rondo - they actually make a lefty!) to serve as backup bass. I know/fear it could lead to me *never* playing the fretted, which I'm not sure I'm ready for, yet.

As for lines, I never look at the fretboard, but I sure as heck look at the (side dots on the) neck. "Try-listen-adjust" for each note is a nice idea, but in most modern music, there's no time for that, at least not with my limited ability! Plus, it's pretty hard for me to hear my intonation out of a noisy live mix. I'm at the stage where I know if I'm wrong, but I don't know which way to instantly correct without looking at the side dots. I certainly respect and admire those fretless players who can play completely by ear!

All that to say, unlined is more beautiful, imho, and it really doesn't help much to have lines when there are side dots in the proper positions.
 
I'll provide one more thought on this. Have any of you ever been in a situation where the guitarist is playing a solo.... and everyone in the band knows the solo is done, everyone in the audience knows the solo is done, but the guitarist just won't stop playing the damn solo? And you can't get his attention without the drummer throwing a stick at him? THAT is what happens when musicians look at the fingerboard. It kills band communication. Music is supposed to be communication. Among band members, there needs to be the ability to get each others' attention without embarrassing each other in front of an audience.

Looking at the fingerboard destroys all band communication, makes the drummer throw sticks at you so you'll stop soloing, and causes great embarrassment for all other band members?

That wouldn't be just a TINY bit overstated, would it? :eyebrow:
 
I'll provide one more thought on this. Have any of you ever been in a situation where the guitarist is playing a solo.... and everyone in the band knows the solo is done, everyone in the audience knows the solo is done, but the guitarist just won't stop playing the damn solo? And you can't get his attention without the drummer throwing a stick at him? THAT is what happens when musicians look at the fingerboard. It kills band communication. Music is supposed to be communication. Among band members, there needs to be the ability to get each others' attention without embarrassing each other in front of an audience.

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