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"Play it like this..."

#21
Downunderwonder said:
The bigger misconception is "band of mates" vs "songwriter project".
Click to expand...

That may well end up being the crux of our case. This is why I'm going to roll out my own demo as soon as I finish the lyrics -- to expand the group dynamic. I've already got it tracked out with a scratch vocal, and it will hang with the BL's stuff. Actually, all three of us write, so with the right environment, we could cover some ground.
 
#22
simply tell him- "I will gladly play it just the way you write out the parts, provided I am paid $150 for each session/practice we do, whether it is practice or recording. Since this isn't really a band situation, that is my going rate." Watch him run real fast. Also tell him your minimum performance rate.
 
#23
Hi,

The last original project I was in, a couple of brothers on guitars with a drummer and me, I played it just the way the BLs wanted. The guitar brothers were the songwriters and both were excellent musicians and wrote out charts for everything. They wanted a reading bass player so that's one reason I got the gig. It was catchy stuff, well arranged, and I had nice parts written. Sure, I had little wiggle room but it was their vision and I did my best to fulfill my part of their vision. It was really fun. But like most original projects it eventually faded away.

So enjoy, learn, be receptive, do your best, gain experience, practice, learn more theory and notation, and keep improving. This isn't your first gig and it won't be your last.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
#24
Why do players get so uptight about this kind of stuff? If you have a Band Leader, then do it like he/she likes it for crying out loud. Whats the big deal anyway? Can't anyone be given constructive criticism anymore without getting all butt hurt about it? Otherwise be your own BL. If you don't know what that is then look up Michael League.
 
#26
In a band situation you always have the option of trying to contribute your own songs to the project. And if you bring some (complete)songs that are good, and in line with the general concept of the band? Even better.

There has been many a band that has been torn apart over creative issues and the acrimony that develops when songwriting credit is focused on particular members. The best way to deal with this is to get to work so that you're a strong songwriter in the scope of that project.
 
#27
Good discussion here; TB is an outstanding resource. Let me try to summarize what I've read/inferred so far...

In favor of letting someone determine your part for you:

1) We agreed on those roles up front.
2) They're paying you; do what they want.
3) They're the songwriter; it's their song.
4) The project was formed to showcase the songwriter's stuff.
5) Even if they're not the writer, a band leader can set parts.
6) The part being assigned is good, so go with it.
7) You dig the project enough to sacrifice some autonomy.
8) Suck it up and learn; play the long game.
9) It's no big deal.

In favor of letting players determine their own parts:

10) No one needs total control; it's a band.
11) If they're not paying you, you're not their employee.
12) Give and take can benefit the creative process.
13) Lighten up; being heavy-handed with direction can cause friction.
14) Sorry, that kind of gig just doesn't work for me.

Good stuff!
 
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#29
I agree, Rusty, and that's the wise perspective. As I said up top, I think it's more helpful to be given direction that I have to interpret versus him standing in front of me and plinking out the bassline on his guitar. That's really my issue -- "guidance" vs. "dictation." The first approach makes me responsible; the second just makes me a meat-based recording device.

On the one hand, I can't pretend that my ego is totally out of the picture, here, but on the other, I know that I learn more by having to engage my brain. In terms of the song at hand, the BL might experience that as inefficiency, but in the long run, it's going to bring me along as a player. (Now maybe that's not his priority; we'll have to wait and see.)

I joined the project primarily to contribute as a co-writer and then found myself needed in the bass role. I'm happy to learn to fill that role, because I'm ultimately more rhythm/groove oriented than anything else, and probably should have trained on bass from the beginning, instead of guitar.

It's a bit of a challenge to be (1) a middle-aged guy, (2) with some musical ability, but (3) no significant bass experience. Given (1) and (2), I want to have to wrestle with it versus being handed the part note-for-note. Ultimately, my future with this band will depend both on how my bass parts are handled AND on how my writing contributions are treated. If it ends up being an 0-for-2 situation, there won't be enough in it to justify the time spent.
 
#30
writing songs as a band is a process, where a handful of people is involved.
so you got something like "a group´s creativity" at hand. make use of it :)


2 weeks ago my band´s keyboarder told me: "play something more static there ... mechanic, or such. totally simple and repetitive".
i tried.
"that´s awesome."
"indeed."
 
#31
If the BL gave you a piece of sheet music for the song , you would be playing exactly what he had written. He would have known exactly what he wanted and it would be your responsibility to play it. Just because he hasn't written it out ( or doesn't read sheet music and can't write it out) doesn't mean he doesn't have a bass line in his head for the song. It's his song so try to give him what he wants. I have had to do this many times and although it can be annoying at times , I have no problem with it. If the song is a band colaberation , then it's up to each musician to come up with a part for the song but still , someone may want something different than what you came up with. OK , so try something different at that point. Don't let your feelings get hurt because someone asks for something different and for petes sake , don't balk at it and refuse to try. IMO that makes you look like a total amateur.
Now to be fair , yeah , the guy sounds like a bit of a control freak but if that's the case , you are just going to have to deal with that . It will if nothing else make you a better musician. If the guy is rubbing you that badly, it might be time to move on. Is that going to be worth it to you? Original music can be and usually is full of compramises.. Just the nature of the beast.
 
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#32
FerruleCat said:
Edit: I also think that telling the drummer which hand to use on the crash pretty much goes beyond "constructive criticism."
Click to expand...

Writing basslines is a bit different than guitar riffs. For one thing, it can vary by song whether it's better to have improvisatory parts or tight set parts. It can also vary whether it's better to play off the drums, match the guitar, link the two, counterpoint the vocals, etc. So there are lots of possibilities! When you first start working with a songwriter, there are always trust issues if your name isn't Tony Levin or John-Paul Jones (picture how many of JPJs lines would be nixed these days!). This is especially true since you're new to the instrument. I tend to take this in stride and make small compromises at a time. When a songwriter doesn't like a part I believe in, I often ask them to live with a few days and give another listen. If they still hate it I'll bury it.

On the other hand, the quote above and the part about him micro-managing minute details like "pinky here, and slide there" scream control freak. I played with one of those a little bit ago where he would try to conduct the drummer's tempo by waving him to constantly slow down or speed up. He messed the drummer up so badly that it took playing with the him AWAY from the BL to find out that he could hold a groove when unmolested. That kind of thing had me pretty ornery with that guy, so I would stick with parts that he disliked if I thought they were sound musically.
 
#33
My band does originals.

Typically whoever has the vision or idea for the song will take the reigns for it and kind of guide the rest of us towards creating the vibe he wants to go for. There's always the caveat that if you are going to suggest a change then you should have a realistic reason for it that you can explain right then. That way we're on the same page as you.

I've noticed that when there's debate over how we want to do things it's because two people are trying to steer the boat in a different direction. Struggling with one steering wheel so to speak. You gotta step back and let whoever has the direction at that point in time, steer. Gotta trust them.

If you say I need to cut out a ghost note or rest at this one point. Just explain what effect you are trying to create at that part of the song. That way we're working towards the same goal.

Sometimes we don't know what's best and ask each other for ideas. Especially if one of the other guys is having lightbulbs go off in their head.

What sucks is we don't always have time to explore all the creative avenues we come up with. :/
 
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#34
FerruleCat said:
I also think that telling the drummer which hand to use on the crash pretty much goes beyond "constructive criticism."
Click to expand...
The only time it makes sense for a BL to say something like that is if he knows the drummer (or whoever) isn't getting the sound he wants because they're employing improper technique. Out of context, the "use your left hand" demand sounds silly, but it might not be if the BL knows that the drummer's time/timbre is off because of how he's hitting the cymbal.
 
#35
Something that has worked for me before in similar situations is to ask "Do you have a reference recording in mind that would help me understand what type of sound or feel you're going for?" If he says "yeah, check out this Tom Waits record, the thing I really like about the bass is...", then great, go listen to and transcribe that record and then come back to his song and see if you can bring that influence in. Let him know..."hey I checked that record out and was playing with this, what do you think?" It might start the conversation going in a different direction and make you more collaborators. Yeah, you're trying to give him what he wants, but you're making him explain/describe it to you. I've had this work out and I've had it show me that the creative genius I was dealing with didn't know what he wanted or was doing. I had a guy hear me play once and then he called me several times about getting involved in "his music". I showed up with my Fender and he said "Okay this first song...a wait..can you tune your bass (to some made up alternate tuning)?" I said "no, just tell me how the song goes." He said "well, I've made up my own chords and I don't know how to describe them..."

When I got him to play them for me and just transcribed the notes, they were "D7, Amin, etc". He didn't know what he was doing, but he had "invented" some stuff that sounded like music. I was not willing to change for that guy. They are almost never as special as they think they are. A jazz gig I used to play, the guy would shout at us on stage "play it bouncier with loft" and poopie like that. I asked him at a set break, for a reference recording and suggested a few people who he should have heard of (like the guy who wrote the song he was calling) and he said that he didn't really listen to jazz, because he didn't want to be influenced by other people's playing. Well, okay, but all that means is that you can't communicate with other musicians and you're a bandleader who has hired other musicians and wants to dictate what they play and how they play it. Whether he's paying me or not (and he was, quite well), it just doesn't work.

Other's though have said "I really like on x record how the drums and bass lay back and..." and yeah, cool, let's do that.

As for people writing out parts, there's a downside to that too. Piano players are always giving bass lines that go below E below the staff, so not only do I have to read it, but I have to transpose up and octave. Blah. Or big band charts have these "root-5th-root-5th-root-3rd-5th" lines that no bassist would ever play for 23 measures or worse some crazy thing that they never had to finger, but they engineered in Finale, because they were reading George Russell's book or something.

In the end, it's music and it's spending time with people who are either good influences in your life or not. Give it your best shot, give him the benefit of the doubt, see if he can explain what he wants in a more constructive way and then decide if it's worth your time to stay in.

Either way, if you're new to the instrument, start copping some lines from recordings in the genre you would like to be playing in.
 
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#36
squidtastic said:
The only time it makes sense for a BL to say something like that is if he knows the drummer (or whoever) isn't getting the sound he wants because they're employing improper technique. Out of context, the "use your left hand" demand sounds silly, but it might not be if the BL knows that the drummer's time/timbre is off because of how he's hitting the cymbal.
Click to expand...

I'll admit that I've said something like this to a drummer. I only play a little drums. If it makes a roll out of a cymbal hit easier by starting with a left, that's good advice. But I'd only suggest that if the drummer was struggling in the first place.
 
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#37
Tennesseemick said:
I ask the songwriter what bass line he hears in his head. Most often he says he heard what I just played. Other times, I take his direction. It's his song.

He's done the same for songs I've written.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this in my situation now too. Though, my guitar player and I have been writing together for so long, I usually play the bass lines she is hearing anyways, or she doesn't hear a bass line initially.

Being the kind of writer that hears and creates all of the parts when I write, I can feel where the BL is coming from though. I generally let the drummer go, unless I hear specific rhythmic stops and starts, or a specific style of beat (like "train beat/marching beat/half-time/ blast etc...) but I don't tell the drummer how to fill, or what cymbals to hit. Same with any kind of soloing. I just say "solo here". Key is ________, and the phrase is _________ measures long. I personally can not solo, so why would I direct someone else in an ability that I can't do. (I am a Music Major with Percussion as my main instrument, and bass as secondary)

Lyrics are the same way. I will tell the vocalist "I hear this as the verse riff, this as the chorus etc", but then let them go. I will adjust things to there cadence or phrase needs as the song evolves and we get into the arranging process. That is when we start teaming up to build the song to the next level. I also let other people try out ideas as they get familiar with the song.

I always preface any band situation with "This is how I write. If you all don't like it, I am happy not to write for the situation". Not bowing out of my responsibilities to the band, but I just don't force the subject if I know all members are not comfortable with it.
 
#38
We play in situations that we derive something of value from and there are many ways to derive value from playing music: money, the creative process and result, the social aspect, the rush of performing in public, playing with more experienced musicians.

You have to ask yourself "Is putting up with the micromanaging worth it to gain the playing experience?". Or more generally "are the benefits worth the downsides?". It may be for a little while but only you can answer that.
 
#39
I don't see the problem really, personally I feel you have to be pretty up yourself if you're unwilling to get over your ego and play as part of the team. If someone's written a song and they have a part in mind, play it. What's the harm? If you feel you can enhance it then go for it, but I guess ultimately it comes down to how respectful the bandleader/songwriter is. If they're a douche to you for playing your own parts then that's not good, but I've never understood the inherent egotism and selfishness of the "I'll only play what I'm asked to if I'm getting paid" attitude.
 
#40
If someone else wrote the song, I have no problems with them telling me what the bass line is supposed to be. If I write a song, sometimes I want the guitar or drum part to be pretty specific at times, so I play fair. For me, whoever writes the song has the final say, and I like the challenge of playing what someone else has come up with. I do prefer that it be written out if it's really specific, though.
 

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