"Play it like this..."

[FerruleCat]

What's the general etiquette for allowing bandmates to determine their own parts versus the band leader directing how to play a part?

I'm at a disadvantage because I'm making the transition from rhythm guitar to bass, so I have plenty to learn about building bass parts. But I've always payed attention to basslines, know some theory, and know my way around a fretboard well enough.

I'm in a startup three-piece doing originals, and so far we are doing the band leader's stuff.

The position that I've staked out is this: (1) I know I'm the weak link here, so replace me whenever you want, no questions asked. (2) In the meantime, though, I'm trying to learn, so give me direction that I will have to interpret, like "walk it around more," or "simplify," or "use more octaves." (3) But don't dictate note for note what you want me to play.

I think I've been perfectly cool about this, but I'm watching for pushback from the BL. He's directing at the level of "Don't hammer that note on; slide up to it," and "Hit that cymbal crash with your LEFT hand."

So where's the reasonable balancing point -- assuming anyone has ever been able to find it?

 

[sean_on_bass]

Are you getting paid? That's pretty much the deal breaker for me there. If your not getting paid there has to be some redeeming factor to working with a "perfectionist." You have to decide what that is. Are his songs that good that you'll sacrifice a little dignity for them?

 

[David Jayne]

It's his stuff. I'd humor him and play it his way unless he's being a d*** about it. You might learn something.

 

[Winfred]

Put up with it, until you become a better bassist. Trust me, a good bassist is way harder to find than a singer. Eventually, you'll be deciding who you make music with.

 

[Renaissance]

Are you learning anything in this environment? It seems to me the only thing this band has to offer you is the opportunity to advance as a bassist. I've never been in an originals band so I really don't know "the protocol", but I know how I will and will not be treated.

 

[IncX]

i would suck it up and do everything he says if i like him and that it is a good song .... if i dont like the guy, the song has better be really good and his ideas should make me go "whoa, thats amazing!"

but, if i am so-so with the guy, and i am not impressed with the song ... i am leaving, even if i am getting paid, cause it happened to me. i was playing in a local folk band that used to be popular in the 90's and i was pretty much convinced the basslines in his songs were "lead guitar style, wanking" ... i got tired of having to learn it, so i quit, and i was rewarded with a sense of relief.

 

[JimmyM]

Put up with it, until you become a better bassist. Trust me, a good bassist is way harder to find than a singer. Eventually, you'll be deciding who you make music with.

Not in my experience. The very hardest thing to find is a good singer.

Anyway, nobody likes to be told what to play, but when it comes to writing songs, I will certainly take advice from the songwriter. However, it can go too far...like one time I read that Lindsay Buckingham said to his fellow members of Fleetwod Mac, "My songs aren't coming out the way I hear them in my head."

Mick Fleetwood replied, "Maybe you don't want to be in a band, then."

Always took that to heart when I write songs with a clear vision of how I wanted them to sound.

So if it's just to correct a note you're playing wrong or something, listen to it and don't take offense. Or if he's got a grand vision for his song that you're not nailing, hear him out on that as well. And sometimes they will try to reel you in if you step all over their vocals or leads, and you're always wise to consider if the notes you're playing are for the song or just to whack yourself off. But I do believe it can go too far, so if you feel strongly about a part you're playing, explain why you like it. Then he will explain why he doesn't, and maybe you can reach a compromise.

Unless of course he's paying you $500 a night, in which case I'd just hush and do what he says and collect my money

 

[Tennesseemick]

I ask the songwriter what bass line he hears in his head. Most often he says he heard what I just played. Other times, I take his direction. It's his song.

He's done the same for songs I've written.

 

[skwee]

If someone wants to dictate every note, then that person needs to notate it out on paper and let you learn it. If they are unable to do that for you, then they shouldn't be dictating out a part until they can.

 

[FerruleCat]

Great feedback here, thanks.

I'm not getting paid; we're not at that stage yet. I like the BL's material, but his micromanaging approach is challenging. The main benefit for me right now is that I'm learning. BL asked me to step up a bass part, so I did. Now the revision is "Way too busy," so it's back to the drawing board. The upside is that with that first revision, I played a line more technical than I thought I could.

It will just be a matter of me checking my ego up to a reasonable limit. My being a novice doesn't preclude the possibility that he's also a Richard. It seems that things are pretty one way for now. I'm about to introduce an original demo, so that will be a key test.

 

[ShoeManiac]

Original projects can vary wildly when it comes to how much input band members have on the songwriting and arranging processes. So much of that process depends on the vision of the songwriter, and how much they've already fleshed out the idea before bringing it to the band. Is the songwriter a control freak? Have you and the other band members earned their trust in interpreting their material in the past? Also keep in mind that the songwriter may have a VERY SPECIFIC idea of what they want. Try to play along. Learn the songwriter's language for conveying their musical ideas and be open to trying them. I've come across a number of players who wound up married to certain ideas that really didn't work in the grand scheme of a song. And when they couldn't step back and look at the song from a big picture standpoint it was usually the failing of the individual musician.

I've had varying experiences with songwriters. Some have come to me with the bass part essentially written out, and I basically sightread the part. Others have come in with very basic lead sheets and I came up with my own part. In some of those instances that led to me radically shifting the direction of the song based on a hook that I came up with. The more songwriters you work with, the more you're going to encounter different dynamics in your contributions.

Other factors to keep in mind? If the songwriter isn't paying you and it's more of a band situation, the unwritten rule tends to be that the songwriter should probably give the band members a little bit of creative leeway. But when the songwriter IS paying you? Then the dynamic shifts and you're really more of a sideman. There can definitely be some situations where the lines become blurred, and not everything is cut and dried. The key is to try and feel out the situation as you go, and do what feels right for you as a musician.

 

[FerruleCat]

There's no money involved, except for what I'm laying out to re-kit as a bass player. The way I see it, I'm not an employee, but a bandmate - albeit the junior dude in terms of experience.

I asked the BL if he'd ever actually gigged his material, though, and he said no. My prediction is that come Sept. 1st, we still won't have played a set. I'm kind of setting that as a milestone date, and at this rate I'll be a lot better by then.

 

[Tennesseemick]

My buddy, the songwriter, had never gigged his material either. I had heard of a BBQ place's Wednesday night open mic. I called the place for details then told my buddy I had scheduled us for that night. We were the only band that showed up so the house guitarist let us play as long as we wanted. So we played the six songs we had written. Now, we're playing as often as our schedules allow.

FWIW, the last open mic (only original tunes allowed) we played, we were named the best of the night.

Edit: The last place we played was not the BBQ place. In fact, we "won" in my town's premier downtown local music venue.

 

[mellowinman]

I will play whatever you want me to play, for a time. If it just doesn't sit well with me, or feels wrong, I will tell you. We should be able to work it out, usually.

 

[Goatee]

I would suggest if he only wants you to play exactly what he wants then he is a control freak, he may as well record the parts himself and play to a backing track or if he actually makes it big then he will hire backing musicians

On the other hand if he wants to be part of a band then he will allow you to interpret what he writes and add your own style and influence to the songs

 

[ShoeManiac]

One act that is very near and dear to my heart is The Band. I love their work and I think that the world of music is a much better place because of they way their work shifted things following their first two or three albums. In my appreciation for The Band I checked out an episode of VH1's classic albums show that highlighted their self-titled second album, "The Band", which is known to some fans as 'The Brown Album'.

In interviews with the surviving members there were some very enlightening things that they imparted. One very significant lesson was imparted by drummer / vocalist Levon Helm. And he said that when it came time for them to record they took the view that they were playing songs. Because all too often musicians get into the studio and think about playing "tracks". It's a worthwhile mindset to explore, because very often we can obsess on our individual bass parts without regarding it as part of the greater arrangement.

 

[Downunderwonder]

A composer can have whatever bass he wants for his song. But that makes the bass player an employee, not a bandmate co writer.

It sounds like your guy can't hold onto a
bassist. Learn what you can but leave the minute you realise you've about had a gutsful and before you resent it.

 

[TheOxRocks]

In the couple of bands I was in that played originals, I was grateful that the composers trusted my skill and creativity as a bass player enough to let me come up with my own bass parts. It was rare that they gave me specific instructions on what to play. Often I would try two or three different styles and let the composer(s) tell me what best fit the song.

 

[ShoeManiac]

A composer can have whatever bass he wants for his song. But that makes the bass player an employee, not a bandmate co writer.

This is a a VERY big misconception when it comes to original bands. As an organization, bands are meant to be something of a group of equals. However in almost every band it becomes quickly apparent that some members contribute more from a creative standpoint than others.

When it comes to the creation of a bass part? Like I said in an earlier post, sometimes a songwriter will come up with specific instrumental parts, and other times they'll leave that up to the instrumentalists. Sometimes the creation of a specific instrumental part will contribute to the melody. But very often it does not, and that translates into an instrumentalist NOT getting songwriting credit.

The general rule about songwriting credits? They're given to the individuals who come up with lyrics, melody and the chord progression. That seems to be the generally accepted standard in most songwriting credit cases.

 

[Downunderwonder]

The bigger misconception is "band of mates" vs "songwriter project".

The fact that rhythmic and melodic contributions of bass and other parts offer much to the creation process is another issue.