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Players that won't learn a note
- Thread starter themickster
- Start date
There is an argument that aimless jamming is pointless, so I for one am happy for that not be taught in schools of any kind, let alone music schools - who wants to do anything pointless? Of course no study of Bach is complete without looking at the Continuo, but that is hardly without purpose or objective.
In a more general sense, up against the compositional depth and complexity of most classical music a lot of improvised styles don't have sufficient 'substance' to hold the interest of a classical player for very long. The combined efforts of a good orchestra playing good music is much greater than the sum of parts and every part makes an important (if not essential) contribution to the whole at all times. The training is as much about a deeper structural understanding of the music and its ingredients as it is about being able to just play your instruments really well. On the flip side, improvised music is more focussed on the virtuosity of the individual soloist(s), with the music coming from ensemble behind them being far less structured and arguably of lesser significance. Compared to the orchestra, an improvising ensemble is much more a collection of individuals doing 'stuff' that collectively creates some kind of harmonic and rhythmic backbone that roughly fits the soloists' expectations. Provided this happens and the backbone is in the ballpark then everyone is happy, but that is no mean feat. True compositional alignment within the ensemble is either pre-arranged (composed?) or the result of rolling 6's on what the others might play next. Of course the odds of rolling 6's can be improved through active listening and a good grasp of theory, but when you are used to music where every aspect of every note in every part has a (largely) pre-ordained purpose both individually and in relation to every other part, it is easy to lose interest in noodling around a few chords rolling 2's and 3's. So the creative processes are different - one is deliberate and considered, the other is spontaneous and reactive in real time - but both are legitimate and important approaches to the creation of music.
YMMV
It's a really interesting topic.
There's an argument that not everyone wants to be a Jazz or Classical player so don't need to know the notes and complex theory. Some people spend a career in covers learning from tabs and not the notes.
Technology has catered for a musical world where anyone with an inch of co-ordination and math can start a band.
I think music goes hand in hand with the rest of society that looks for easier ways to do things for a less ideal solution. I wish I was taught the most complex theory when I was younger instead of a hybrid tab and theory approach and I would be a much better musician today.
I reckon they should put a Skilltester machine on anything over $2,000. Unlocks after you play and identify all the chords in Giant Steps.
There's an argument that not everyone wants to be a Jazz or Classical player so don't need to know the notes and complex theory. Some people spend a career in covers learning from tabs and not the notes.
Technology has catered for a musical world where anyone with an inch of co-ordination and math can start a band.
I think music goes hand in hand with the rest of society that looks for easier ways to do things for a less ideal solution. I wish I was taught the most complex theory when I was younger instead of a hybrid tab and theory approach and I would be a much better musician today.
I reckon they should put a Skilltester machine on anything over $2,000. Unlocks after you play and identify all the chords in Giant Steps.
What I find annoying is that there are too many people who have learned chords by note name, their various voicings etc. but don’t know why for example, f a c e is F major seventh. The concept of tertiary harmony, a fifty cent word for stacking 3rds is the cornerstone of Western harmony and it’s not rocket science. F add a major 3rd, a, add a minor 3rd, c, etc. Learn the effing scale and spell the notes up in thirds. Oh but wait, the thread is about learning the effing note names. Never mind.
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I’m still learning after several decades away from playing music, and am dedicated to learn a reasonable amount of theory. Scales: great, let’s go! Fretboard: yep, let’s start learning that. Arpeggios: cool, that’s up next.
Then I heard about pentatonic etc.: okay, let’s plan to learn that.
Then I heard about Mixolydian etc.
Ugh, this is going to take some work… Good to know there’s no deadline when you’re doing it as a hobby.
Then I heard about pentatonic etc.: okay, let’s plan to learn that.
Then I heard about Mixolydian etc.
Ugh, this is going to take some work… Good to know there’s no deadline when you’re doing it as a hobby.
Yep, with you there! For me, I spent so many years playing Blues. I knew the basics, but so many of my songs were in the same keys, same chords so never bothered to learn more. If I hit a wrong note, I could hear it.
As a piano player my whole life, that's strange to hear. I usually think in flats on keys. Key centers like Db and Ab feel very natural to me, and I feel like a solid majority of repertoire is in flat keys (3/4 of Chopin's ballades come to mind as a very specific example). Though I wouldn't say that B major is any less comfortable to play in than Db major. And to be fair, I think G major is usually the first scale taught after C major because the flat keys have different fingering, while G, D, A, E, and B all share the same fingering as a C major scale. I remember struggling with the Bb major scale when I first learned it as a kid.
Of course on bass you can play any scale without even knowing the notes involved since it's all symmetrical. Takes a lot more thinking on piano unless you practice and memorize them all.
I’m sorry but I find this hard to believe. Source???
…j/k
What do you call the person who graduates last in their medical school class?
Doctor.
I teach in a med school and our job is to make sure that person doesn't go out and kill people.
One of the things that really opened theory up for me was I stopped thinking about the keyboard, and started looking at it from the perspective of intervals. I can still read music and plunk out some stuff on a piano, but stripping away the black key/white key, flats and sharps aspect of it and looking at the pure math of it all really helped me understand the relationships. I think string instruments are great for examining the relationship between notes... and then I go back and put in the flats and sharps. Also as someone that plays tuba and jazz, flats are something with which I am very comfortable.
On a separate note: I knew a guy that refused to learn the notes on a keyboard and always tried to play keys. He'd be like, "okay, play something for this."
And I'd say, "cool, what chords are you playing?"
"I don't know."
"Alright, what notes are you playing?"
"I don't know."
"Okay, play it again and we'll figure what notes they are and what chord it is."
"No."
I definitely agree. I wouldn't advocate putting the multi hour wank fest jams I've been through into curriculum. I think it's a difference in experience and musical worlds. On one hand I've played with guys that absolutely flourish under structure. There's also been uneducated but creative folks that haven't quite got the theory right. I was more commenting that a lot of the non theory folks I've played with interpreted the experience with the classically trained as a non jam friendly space. For my example with the flautist I was absolutely the weak link that didn't know his fretboard and came away unsure where it wasn't clicking.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I’m sorry but I find this hard to believe. Source???
…j/k
Basic arithmetic!
Er..... scroll down to the bottom of the comment that you replied to.
I wouldn’t wish to last any time at all. I would be gone by my own decision very quickly.
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I don't think this is true, all doctors are above average. Just ask them ;-)
I knew I’d catch someone! Not gonna lie though, it did take me 0.5 seconds to realize how mathematically sound his “statistic” happened to be when I first read it.. My reply however was a joke.
There needs to be a way to communicate what is required. You can generally work down from notation to define what, how and where, but if the person has no clue where they start and can't help explain in any real shape of form, then its a hopeless task.
The basics are working off a chord chart.
If people dont know their way around the fretboard then calling out chords wont achieve anything.
There is no way around this unless you have perfect pitch but even then, how does that work if you are playing in earnest first time through.
The basics are working off a chord chart.
If people dont know their way around the fretboard then calling out chords wont achieve anything.
There is no way around this unless you have perfect pitch but even then, how does that work if you are playing in earnest first time through.
