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Playing for enjoyment vs. becoming a virtuoso?

This is a great thread.
Like many i picked up bass in school so that i could play in bands with mates, have a laugh, and maybe try and impress a few girls :)
Over the last couple years though i have started to pursue it a bit more, pick up more work, and now its getting to the point where i have made time in my life to practice at least 3 hours a day, sometimes up to 7 or 8, depending on what i'm doing.
I really enjoy doing this and am having a great time playing gigs most weekends, and doing some recording sessions in the week, not to mention im blessed to be in a situation to do so however i must admit sometimes it does get to be to much and i'm left looking for that feeling i had when i use to jam with mates, playing offspring and blink 182 covers during the summers of highschool.
OH well, life is still good i cant complain, not many things will ever be better than playing an amazin gig, or finishing recording an awesome song
 
My goal when i went back to playing in a band was that ..to play in a band again and to play bass this time. I was a decent guitar player in my last band in High school at the time it was 25 years ago.

As an adult i went to bass and into bands where i am now. I never wanted anything more than to learn songs and gig. I dont study theory or care to. I only work on my songs i need to know,scales and knowing my fretboard. I dont slap and pop much unless Im goofin off or in a rare song onstage...rare.

But I am having fun a blast and I'm known as i have been told as a good solid pocket player with good meter and ear.Thats all i need and all i care about.

I never liked and still dont care for Bass solo's or Bass virtuoso albums ex.Wooten etc. I think they are great very talented but its not what the role of bass is for me. Bass is the engine room the drive with the drums. Give me the old groovers and movers of the bass world and i'm down..a bass solo and ZZZZZZZZZZ. Im happy being a simple pocket bass player thank you. No virtuoso here never will be.
 
I think it begs the question, what is a virtuoso anyway? I personally think the concept that playing for enjoyment versus being a "virtuoso" is null. It almost implies that being good at something can't be enjoyable for one thing.

I don't think many musicians that would be considered a virtuoso by the people that would give them that label would think of themselves that way at any rate. To me the difference between being a "virtuoso" and someone that looks at a musician as a "virtuoso" is that one knows how to go beyond their limitations and the other one doesn't.

Besides that the term is relative, one man's virtuoso is another man's mediocre player. What is important is having the discipline and adaptability to be professional, know what to do when the time is right and being able to express the things you want to technically and creatively.
 
I think the term virtuoso is over-used in rock music - things like that...?

Whereas in serious music - what most people call Classical - there is no doubt who is a virtuoso - and there are certain pieces that you can only play if you are a virtuoso.

Like say - Rachmaninov's 3rd piano concerto - can only be payed by a virtuoso pianist!
 
I think it begs the question, what is a virtuoso anyway?

+1

I think it's important to enjoy music whatever level you're at, but I've also found that continuous learning and growth are usually necessary for sustaining one's interest in music.

That doesn't necessarily mean playing faster or more complex lines, but I can't really get excited about playing if I'm just going through the same old motions all the time.
 
Yeah, I don't gig out often at all...couple times a year maybe. But music is my life, so much so, that at 32 years old I decided to pursue a bachelors degree in jazz. Not to make money, nor to raise my credibility, but the pure desire to learn as much as possible about the thing that brings me the most joy. I aspire towards virtuosity, and cannot understand how that could ever hold negative connotations. I do know other musicians, who play out regularly, make decent money and have great fun, without any knowledge of theory and little to no practice regiments. Doesn't bother me in the least bit. Its really about what the musician gets out of it. This doesn't correlate by any means with ability or skill level, as we all know musicians are real people too, and we all have are own ways.
 
Yeah, I don't gig out often at all...couple times a year maybe. But music is my life, so much so, that at 32 years old I decided to pursue a bachelors degree in jazz. Not to make money, nor to raise my credibility, but the pure desire to learn as much as possible about the thing that brings me the most joy. I aspire towards virtuosity, and cannot understand how that could ever hold negative connotations. I do know other musicians, who play out regularly, make decent money and have great fun, without any knowledge of theory and little to no practice regiments. Doesn't bother me in the least bit. Its really about what the musician gets out of it. This doesn't correlate by any means with ability or skill level, as we all know musicians are real people too, and we all have are own ways.

The cool thing is even thou you are in a diffrent place totally than say the guys you know who know no theory and gig for $ and just play to play you dont down them. There are some on here who get on their high horse of music knowledge and damn the guy who like to jam with decent fretboard skills and play gigs.

You are in a 100% diffrent direction in music than me. I care nothing about a degree in jazz theory or really knowing more about bass playing than that itself..playing the bass. The way i look at it some like to learn about the bass ,some like to play it and Some like both. Me i just want to play...life's short and i'm havin fun. Good luck in school ..hope it works out for you.
 
Yeah, I don't gig out often at all...couple times a year maybe. But music is my life, so much so, that at 32 years old I decided to pursue a bachelors degree in jazz.

Not to make money, nor to raise my credibility, but the pure desire to learn as much as possible about the thing that brings me the most joy.

I aspire towards virtuosity, and cannot understand how that could ever hold negative connotations....

Well there are many ways it could - depending on how you view music and society.

So - should music be "for everyone" regardless of their understanding..?

Is it possible that you could end up with a kind of musical elite of virtuoso players who are separate from their audience, by virtue of concentrating too much on the technical aspects of music, as opposed to the emotion and content - what are you saying to an audience..?

If you are just saying - look how clever I am - then that is definitely a "negative connotation"...?

If you are saying - I am playing stuff that only I understand and you plebs down there will never truly appreciate - then again I can see that as a "negative connotation"....:eyebrow:

I could go on..?

I think it's quite easy to see how there could be many negative connotations...:hmm:
 
The cool thing is even thou you are in a diffrent place totally than say the guys you know who know no theory and gig for $ and just play to play you dont down them. There are some on here who get on their high horse of music knowledge and damn the guy who like to jam with decent fretboard skills and play gigs.
People who can read and understand theory don't look down on those who don't, I don't think. OK, some do, but the nicer of us stress theoretical solutions to questions people ask on here because we know they work, so it comes off as acting superior, maybe. I also believe that people who are asking questions on here take them seriously, so we'll offer the best possible solutions we know, and they're always based on good technique and theory. Anything less would be an insult. People are free to take the advice or dismiss it, but I'll let them make that decision.

I have to tell you, though, I don't get the exclusion of fun when discussing being a virtuoso. You can be a virtuoso and have fun. Victor Wooten looks like he has a great time. Yeah, it takes immense dedication, but being able to play like Vic is fun! Not saying that was your implication, but just addressing it in general.
 
Well there are many ways it could - depending on how you view music and society.

So - should music be "for everyone" regardless of their understanding..?

Is it possible that you could end up with a kind of musical elite of virtuoso players who are separate from their audience, by virtue of concentrating too much on the technical aspects of music, as opposed to the emotion and content - what are you saying to an audience..?

If you are just saying - look how clever I am - then that is definitely a "negative connotation"...?

If you are saying - I am playing stuff that only I understand and you plebs down there will never truly appreciate - then again I can see that as a "negative connotation"....:eyebrow:

I could go on..?

I think it's quite easy to see how there could be many negative connotations...:hmm:

I don't think that's different to any other aspect of music. Some people get it some people don't. You can't and, in my opinion, shouldn't please everyone. It really depends on what you want to achieve.

I don't really believe in virtuosity any more than I believe in "groove". Just another subjective term in my opinion. There are people that can execute a level of technicality that allows them to perform a certain type of music, at the end of the day it's the music played that you listen to. Whether that music is good or bad or whatever else is a matter of opinion.
 
This is a great question, I dont want to be a wooten, but since i am aiming for a career as a session player i have set my bar of improvment quite high. i often practise atleast an hour a day but i am going to up that to mabye 2-3. i appreciate people on hear are older than me and have families etc. and in a lot of ways i respect them more, since it must be hard juggling a passion for bass (which alot of people on hear have) and a busy family life.
 
This is a great question, I dont want to be a wooten, but since i am aiming for a career as a session player i have set my bar of improvment quite high. i often practise atleast an hour a day but i am going to up that to mabye 2-3. i appreciate people on hear are older than me and have families etc. and in a lot of ways i respect them more, since it must be hard juggling a passion for bass (which alot of people on hear have) and a busy family life.
Eh, you manage. But if you're going to make a serious move on the industry, do it now while you're young and unattached, because becoming a session musician requires immense dedication to not only playing bass but music in general. And family life will interfere with the level of dedication. It's not impossible to do, but it's not easy on a spouse to deal with it. Since the session business has so very few jobs to offer in relation to the people who want to do them, I'd seriously consider a backup plan. Live work, teaching, maybe get into the technical side and buy a studio and force everyone to use you on their sessions... ;)
 
I have played bass for nearly 16 yrs., very seriously in the last 5 years or so and never wanted to be a virtuoso just a decent player. I started playing bass because I enjoyed the sound, bass players are in demand, and bass players are the unsung heroes of any band, that was my attraction. But, even if I only ever play in my small apartment...its for me, to make me happy, if anybody else gets happy....then good, if not....so what? Its for me, and it should always be for you.
 
People who can read and understand theory don't look down on those who don't, I don't think. OK, some do, but the nicer of us stress theoretical solutions to questions people ask on here because we know they work, so it comes off as acting superior, maybe. I also believe that people who are asking questions on here take them seriously, so we'll offer the best possible solutions we know, and they're always based on good technique and theory. Anything less would be an insult. People are free to take the advice or dismiss it, but I'll let them make that decision.

I have to tell you, though, I don't get the exclusion of fun when discussing being a virtuoso. You can be a virtuoso and have fun. Victor Wooten looks like he has a great time. Yeah, it takes immense dedication, but being able to play like Vic is fun! Not saying that was your implication, but just addressing it in general.

Oh your right not all do. The TBers with the higher education such as yourself who help are great. But there are some around here with an attitude on bass playing the old if you dont know theory etc you aint crap :rolleyes:

I play to enjoy music and challenge the natural inter music i have. I dont have time to take lessons or for that matter practice as much as i would like although i do almost daily somehow. Theory etc makes it no fun for me and music has to be fun..period. Take away the fun and I am out. The time it takes to be a quote virtuoso i will never have or have the drive for. Like i said i want to play the bass ...i dont want to learn the bass. I learned the bassics to play and practice. People who go on with theory ,college, jazz studies etc want to learn. Thats great go for it.
 
Interesting thread...

A little background first: I started on guitar in '79 at the tender age of 14 and was always the third guitar player in bands -- so they kept asking me to play bass. After a few more instances of this, I decided to focus on bass in the bands.

With the energy and inspiration of my teen years I spent a fair amount of time improving my chops. I was never the best bass player around, but was considered solid - especially for being the only self-taught bass player around when the other guys in the other bands had more formal training.

Over the last 28 years, I've spent some time in bands -- for a while I concentrated on my solo acoustic guitar stuff (my first love)...and I've always had to balance it with my job (which I know I need to keep ;-), my family and so on.

Right now, I'm in a three-piece band plus singer and we tend to cover things done in much larger bands. That makes it so the guitar player and I can't just focus on the basic parts, but we also have to find ways to fill in the areas left by the lack of a second guitar, keys, etc. That's where my challenges come in -- knowing when and what to fill, and when to hang back. That mostly fills the need for creativity that I used in bands of my youth when we were focusing on originals.

The thing I've learned in my not-so-old age is: Play the music, feel the music, give it what it needs, and stay out of the way when you need to.

The guitar player and I have been working together on and off for the last eight years, so we know well what to expect from each other and we can mostly do what we need with just a look at each other or a few words between songs. Our drummer has only been with us for less than a year, so we're still learning how to communicate with each other when the music is going. He tends to be "eyes closed" in his own world, so I have feel his groove and work within that -- or get his attention when I need for him listen to me.

I know I'll never be a virtuoso -- I don't have the time and dedication for that. There will always be bass players better than me, but I know that I can hold my own in a band and do just about anything the other band members require of me. I can throw in the occasional flashy bit as the songs require -- then go home and learn my parts for the next songs and come to the next practice ready to figure out what else the songs may or may not need.

As long as I am having fun, then my needs as a musician are being fulfilled.

Sorry for the long-windedness, but it's fun to share with like-minded folks. Thanks for indulging me.

Brandt
 
I wasn't sure where on TB to put this so I thought I'd go with this forum.

I'm really curious about what players consider their personal aspiration for playing the bass?

Let me give you some background ...

I've recently landed a gig as the "First Sunday" bass player in my church. I'll also be doing some playing with our various choirs when they travel and for special events. I've been working hard to learn the songs and I'm very comfortable that I'll be able to do an excellent job in this role.

Although the material is challenging for me as an intermediate bassist, there's nothing here that will (ever) require me to become the next incarnation of Jaco or Stanley -- and guess what -- I am TOTALLY cool with that.

Understanding that one always wants to get better (and that is my continuing goal), I am realistic about the fact that I am never going to become a Bass virtuoso. More importantly, with a full-time job and being a divorced parent, I am not able or willing to devote the kind of time that it would take to do so. It's hard enough for me to carve out 45 minutes a day to practice.

Having said that, I don't think I need to have Wooten-esque chops to enjoy playing the bass and that is NOT my aspiration. I just want to play well, have my bass ideas make musical sense, and hold down the groove. If I can do that every time I play, it will be a great thing.

I am wondering -- how many other folks here are in about the same boat as me? That is, "You play well enough to be good enough -- and that's good enough for you."

Nice post.

Me, I enjoyed trying to become a virtuoso. :) I combined the either/or statement to become an "and" type of statement! :)

Ultimately, the music of virtuosos, while interesting, enjoyable, respectable, appreciable and musical, is not necessarily the music I gravitate to for listening enjoyment.

I used to buy everything that had Jaco on it, and at one point, I had about 70% of the material available for purchase. I haven't bought any (new to me) Jaco stuff in about a decade, and didn't build off my Jaco collection with similar efforts to collect the works of other virtuoso bass heroes, with the exception of Level 42 (Mark King). I used to aspire to "be" Jaco years ago, in respect and awe, but no longer. I still aspire to "be" Mark King, but just try finding non-bassist musicians who are into that band! :)

I think my playing/practicing has followed a similar trend. I still enjoy Jaco, and I run through the Level 42 catalogue regularly, but I'm listening to and playing different things. I have an admittedly wider scope of listening now, for the most part. I guess I got to the point that I realized that learning something new on the bass didn't and shouldn't automatically equate to something more difficult and chop-busting than the last "most difficult and chop busting" thing. Where does that road lead???? Even if I could play "Portrait of Tracy" or "Teentown" I feel there is much to be said for listening and learning something much different, and in a sense "easier" than those two.

For many years now, if there's been one artist/bassist who's been on my mind, it's been James Taylor, and his bassists, Lee Sklar and Jimmy Johnson. While these bass lines and songs are not necessarily the stuff of virtuosos, per se, the music has magic to it. That, and I just seem to gravitate to music with vocals in it and vocal harmonies. To me, that would include James Taylor, CSN, Hall and Oates, Joni Mitchell, Fleetwood Mac and a whole slew of rock, pop, R&B, soul, folk, country and musics that are some hybrid of these. I think probably the biggest thing is that I'm not only a bass player, but also a singer, so that hugely influences my tastes and approach as a bass player too.

I feel sure those earlier years of chasing Jaco and Mark King have done me well in the long term, as it helped build technique and ability that has been helpful across a broad spectrum of music. The virtuoso approach helped my ear and my technique.

I probably do play well enough to be good enough, as you state, for the music I enjoy most, but I also want to grow and learn new music and throw myself in different situations as much as possible. I differ perhaps in that "well enough to be good enough" really isn't good enough for me. I still aspire to be the best bass player I can be, but I no longer automatically think that must automatically must occur through the mastery or efforts of recreating the lines/works of those that are generally regarded as "bass heroes/bass virtuosos." These days, I think I'm a much better musician, even if I might not think I'm an outright better bassist, technically-speaking, when I was running through the Jaco catalogue 24/7 way back when.
 
Grunching here, but I found that when I was finishing up my degree in music I was going through a phase where my desire to be a virtuoso was preventing me from being a good bass player. It wasn't good enough just to get deep in the pocket, move the song, write a good part and play a sick fill every now and then. I had to play the most difficult, intricate and ridiculous **** anyone had ever heard or I wasn't happy.

Obviously that sucked.

I think bass draws a more mature, glue-of-the-world, salt-of-the-earth type in general than guitar and voice (duh), either that or some dullard who just wants to meet girls and hasn't got the talent for guitar. And I think that as you become an experienced bass player and really want to play with groups and contribute to the music as a whole, it really requires you to develop a balance between your growing repertoire of techniques and what the song calls for. Maybe for this reason, a lot of my favorite bass players these days are guys who also play a prominent role in arranging and producing songs... I think the mindset of a great bass player lends itself to that task moreso than any other instrument.

By contrast, bass players who seem primarily technique-oriented or geared towards bass-as-lead-instrument type formats (really any musicians who do this, it goes for the super-noodlers of the guitar world as well) just don't grab me. I enjoy watching Wooten play and marvel at what he does, but if I wasn't a bass player he would bore me to tears after a few listens.

Basically, to sum up my experience, I think there's always a danger that focusing on becoming a virtuoso will eclipse your desire to become a musician. That sucks. Otherwise, the more you know, the more you can play!
 
If I'm not improving, I'm not happy. If I'm not playing well on a certain gig, I'm not having fun. My only goal is to constanly get better day by day. I have higher aspirations, but right now, I'm setting shorter term goals. There are many 'stops' on the way to being a 'virtuoso,' so I try to reach a certain level before I look to the next one.

Virtuosos, to me, are people who completely understand every step of the process. They fully understand the fundementals before pushing on to something else. You can't run before you walk, et cetra, et cetra.
 

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