Yes, or more like a chorus maybe, a phase shift anyway. if the voice coils were not perfectly Lined up on the vertical plane. Nothing to do with the size of the speaker though.
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Please Bust this myth: "Slow" speakers and "Slow" bass attack
- Thread starter mambo4
- Start date
Yes, or more like a chorus maybe, a phase shift anyway. if the voice coils were not perfectly Lined up on the vertical plane. Nothing to do with the size of the speaker though.
I have never experienced a 'slow attack.' I pluck the string and sound comes from the speaker.
I'm wondering if what people experience is speaker distortion followed by a more natural wave. It makes sense that people would associate this with bass frequencies since so much more excursion is required to replicate those. Either way I know that electromechanical devices don't lag that way and bass frequencies don't 'develop' so much as they finish a cycle.
I'm wondering if what people experience is speaker distortion followed by a more natural wave. It makes sense that people would associate this with bass frequencies since so much more excursion is required to replicate those. Either way I know that electromechanical devices don't lag that way and bass frequencies don't 'develop' so much as they finish a cycle.
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I assume the myth has a lot to do with different midrange response, or different feel how a woofer presents mids and highs.
Smaller cones like 10"s tend to sound more directly/liveliky at the mid band.
Larger cones like 15"s tend to have more dispersion off axis thus the midrange band feels (and hears) different.
And larger cones tend to have decreased response at the top end.
Independent of Harmonics a speaker may cause, all the Harmonics are coherent and therfore no way for a interpretation like a delay due to Harmonics.
Smaller cones like 10"s tend to sound more directly/liveliky at the mid band.
Larger cones like 15"s tend to have more dispersion off axis thus the midrange band feels (and hears) different.
And larger cones tend to have decreased response at the top end.
Independent of Harmonics a speaker may cause, all the Harmonics are coherent and therfore no way for a interpretation like a delay due to Harmonics.
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Having a speaker with poor 1kHz response only. Time constant for 1kHz is 1msec. So if a speaker with 1kHz response is far too slow and then forces a player to correct delays due to a lame duck speaker, the player then has to correct his own beat by time corrections smaller 1msec.
I'd be very very happy if I was able to play a tight beat with deviations of 1msec. at most.
I claim the non pro average player is already tight to the beat by a deviation of appro 10msec. That means a speaker response of 100-200Hz would already meet the needs of a non pro average player.
I'd be very very happy if I was able to play a tight beat with deviations of 1msec. at most.
I claim the non pro average player is already tight to the beat by a deviation of appro 10msec. That means a speaker response of 100-200Hz would already meet the needs of a non pro average player.
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- Feb 12, 2006
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The discussion of speed, and the quite commendable argument presented by ArtechnikA, suggests looking at the driver as an electromechanical device which has amplitude AND frequency.
Frequency is a cycle versus time event, amplitude is a displacement versus time event. The time required to make the transition is called slew rate which is directly related to frequency response.
Insufficient slew rate will result in rolloff of high frequency response and increased distortion.
(edit for materially significant typo... ugh)
Frequency is a cycle versus time event, amplitude is a displacement versus time event. The time required to make the transition is called slew rate which is directly related to frequency response.
Insufficient slew rate will result in rolloff of high frequency response and increased distortion.
(edit for materially significant typo... ugh)
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Absolutely right, but playing a note sharply prior the beat because the feeling of how the cab sounds on stage "forces" a player to do it, ...
I'd suggest to any player try to consider what happens just this moment FOH with PA support.
Assumption,
may be the feel of having a need to play notes sharp prior to the beat has to to with heavy distorted sounds. Heavy distorted sounds smash down the timbre of the initial attack.
IMO one of the most demading goals on designs for guitar preamps is keeping noticable attack even on overdrive sounds.
May be that some players feel a need to strike a string slightly prior to the beat to get a "somewhat" feeling of full sound with the beat. That's then because the timbre of the attack is totally lost.
I'd suggest to any player try to consider what happens just this moment FOH with PA support.
Assumption,
may be the feel of having a need to play notes sharp prior to the beat has to to with heavy distorted sounds. Heavy distorted sounds smash down the timbre of the initial attack.
IMO one of the most demading goals on designs for guitar preamps is keeping noticable attack even on overdrive sounds.
May be that some players feel a need to strike a string slightly prior to the beat to get a "somewhat" feeling of full sound with the beat. That's then because the timbre of the attack is totally lost.
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Passinwind
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- Dec 3, 2003
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One of those things is not quite like the other...Link Removed
Passinwind
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Pretty sure Andy meant to say that amplitude is characterized by displacement vs. time.
and yet the proposition had it that we move slower. Doubly busted.
Separate frequency from speed. CL400P told you all you need to know on that.
There is a tiny little delay on some frequencies relative to others. That may even help our brains pick out over tones. I don't know why I have BOLD type stuck on. I wish I knew. Dumb phone. It's called phase response. We only hear it when same signal is combined from sources on differing phase. Otherwise our brain ignores or maybe even fails to register the very slight difference in arrival times.
T
MDBass
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The quoted post is total nonsense, on all fronts.
Seems like yet another example of someone having too much time on their hands, idle hands and all
The only thing I can add here - I'm sure most of you already understand- but it has not been mentioned: the combination of a relatively weak motor and a relatively high-mass cone (and/or a stiff suspension, I suppose) makes a speaker's cone movement sluggish.
that's the transformer unable to shove electrons around in enough quantity to do the job. Ever wondered why SVT is sooooo heavy? Lots of copper and iron.
A speaker cone does not move instantaneously, it has mass, it has to be accelerated and how quickly it can accelerate will vary from one speaker to another. There is also the issue of the damping factor of the amp (how quickly it can stop the speaker).
- Feb 12, 2006
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Indeed, most certainly
Clearly my mind moves faster than my fingers... another problem that can affect both bass players and engineers!
define sluggish. You mean slow right? No. Not slow. If it was actually slow it would sound like a stutter.
- Feb 12, 2006
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No the speaker will always lag the acceleration and lead the deceleration, which gives rise the the mechanical analogy of inertia and momentum. The lag would be measured in degrees of phase shift which is a dynamic event (always changing), and this is precisely what servo or control systems have to deal with on a continuous basis. It's also the same principle responsible for slip in a (rotational) motor, slip angle is a function of load... JUST LIKE IN A SPEAKER, which is a linear motor.
Now a slight delay (we are talking about fractions on mSec) is of no consequence as it's dynamically changing from slight positive to slight negative and nets out to be zero (othewise the cone would creep away from the basket!
This inability to accelerate instantaneously is one major factor of what is responsible for high frequency rolloff in a woofer, the electrical model looks like a... you got it... LOW pass filter. There are other contributing factors like VC inductance, each factor adds a pole to the filter and each operates at a different frequency. These factors are used by transducer engineers to develop a voicing model for a speaker. Well, engineers do it this way, and tend to get more predictable, repeatable, reliable results than box stuffers.
[Correct for yet another typo
]
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