Double Bass Plugging directly into the PA?

[Stuart.C]

Hi, I have a Schatten bass 10 pick up. It's a discontinued PU. I plug directly into the PA we bring to shows.
But I am getting adjusters installed so this PU won't fit right any more.

I am looking to upgrade with a realist lifeline or full circle.
Can either of these be plugged directly into a PA? or will I need to buy a pre-amp too.

Thanks

 

[Pat Harris]

Both the Realist and FC *can* be plugged directly into the 1/4" input of a PA, it won't hurt anything, but if you're after even a modest amount of musical tone, I'd suggest using a preamp to buffer the pickup, raise the level, deal with impedance, and to have some tone control before sending a signal to the board. All boards are different, but I can't think of one instance where I've heard an upright bass plugged directly in and thought to myself, "Wow, that sounds great."

 

[Stuart.C]

Thanks

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

I have a Full Circle on my bass and I've had good results using my Fishman preamp to plug directly into the PA. I used to have the Pro EQ Platinum and recently got the new Platinum Stage preamp because it's smaller and a bit simpler. I also have a Radial SB-4 Stagebug DI which is designed for this purpose, although it does not have any EQ or volume controls and the hi-pass filter is not adjustable. All of these devices can be run off of phantom power from a mixing board, which is quite handy.

- Steve

 

[Ric Vice]

Hi, I have a Schatten bass 10 pick up. It's a discontinued PU. I plug directly into the PA we bring to shows.
But I am getting adjusters installed so this PU won't fit right any more.

I am looking to upgrade with a realist lifeline or full circle.
Can either of these be plugged directly into a PA? or will I need to buy a pre-amp too.

Thanks

Stuart,
In order to get a decent sound from either of these pickups, they need to be connected to an input that has at least a 1 Meg Ohm load (the Full Circle works best with a 10 Meg Ohm Load. There are some mixers (Yamaha comes to mind) that allow you to set the input impedance higher. Otherwise you'll need to have somekind of a Buffer/Pre Amp. So the boxes that Steve mentioned are all good choices. Personally, I use a Headway EDB-2 because it has a variable input impedance switch that allows you to load the pickup at 1-5 or 20 Meg Ohms and a stellar EQ
section. All of these devices are good choices, so it kind of just depends on what you're budget will allow. Francis Deck also sells the HPF Buffer Pre Amp, which works great, but it's not a DI.

Ric

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Francis Deck also sells the HPF Buffer Pre Amp, which works great, but it's not a DI.
Ric

But you can put the HPFpre in front of any DI the PA guy uses, even passive ones that you should never use without an impedance buffer of some kind in front of it, because that would sound really bad if it works at all.

It's not your job to bring a DI box, except you want to use a special one like a quality device, an active high impedance DI or a preamp with a DI out.

 

[Ric Vice]

But you can put the HPFpre in front of any DI the PA guy uses, even passive ones that you should never use without an impedance buffer of some kind in front of it, because that would sound really bad if it works at all.

It's not your job to bring a DI box, except you want to use a special one like a quality device, an active high impedance DI or a preamp with a DI out.

From my experiences most reputable sound companies have decent DI

But you can put the HPFpre in front of any DI the PA guy uses, even passive ones that you should never use without an impedance buffer of some kind in front of it, because that would sound really bad if it works at all.

It's not your job to bring a DI box, except you want to use a special one like a quality device, an active high impedance DI or a preamp with a DI out.

+1 Most reputable frontline providers have decent DI's of their own, the most common being the Countryman 85, however I've had occasions where the venue did not have a decent DI so it's box dejour. On those occassions it's nice
to have a decent one, especially, if you're only using the P.A. as your amplifier. A question here for the group, if you use an FDeck, directly out to the P.A. would there be an issue with cable lengths since it could be quite a distance between
your position on stage and a input on the board. Just a thought.

Ric

 

[Octavian]

Great replies that have answered the OP's question. My only two cents would be that I've used the Fishman B-II and the Xotic TriLogic when going into a PA. Both sound great and make the tone MUCH better than just going straight into the PA. Especially if you use a bow.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The DI output to the board is low impedance (usually 600 Ohms like microphones) and balanced, so this should be no problem if the cable is longer. The DI should be placed on stage, so the only additional cable length to your amp is the one cable from FDeck to DI (or DI to your amp if you prefer that). If you can use a rather short cable for that (this is something to carry around, not the DI box), I see no problem at all.

 

[Stuart.C]

Thanks everyone.
After reading more about this I found a used fishman Platinum pro bass eq
I think it will help even though my current PU has a little pre amp on it. it's very low output and I always have to crank the chanel it's on.
It will be nice to have EQ control too.
‏

 

[rickwolff]

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Both the Realist and FC *can* be plugged directly into the 1/4" input of a PA, it won't hurt anything, but if you're after even a modest amount of musical tone, I'd suggest using a preamp to buffer the pickup, raise the level, deal with impedance, and to have some tone control before sending a signal to the board. All boards are different, but I can't think of one instance where I've heard an upright bass plugged directly in and thought to myself, "Wow, that sounds great."

emphasis added by Rick

From a 'Contrarian Gear Junkie': This may be apples and oranges, BUT, I've had a bee in my bonnet forever regarding trying a powered speaker for my DB. Absolutely couldn't refuse the 'STUPID DEAL OF THE DAY' a couple days ago (time will tell if the 'stupid' refers to me) so I bought a Harbinger Vari212 powered speaker with a 12 inch speaker and 600 peak watts and app 30 lbs.

It just arrived today and I plugged my Lifeline directly into the 1/4 inch jack in channel 1 (Even though I DO have a Headway EDB-2). Well......pleasant surprise! It DOES SOUND GREAT. I don't know what the input impedance is but if I get this 'true' a sound going straight-in I can only imagine it might be even better when I tweak it thru the EDB-2. I'm taking it on a gig tonight and will use my pre on a mic stand to give me volume (and tone) control at my fingertips without having to reach around behind the PA speaker. I'll report back after my foray into the 'real world' to let you know how it does.

 

[Pat Harris]

Very cool, Rick. I'd certainly like to hear your thoughts. I know when I plugged my upright with a Full Circle directly into a QSC K10, the results were alright, and could probably work as a last resort, but further tone shaping was definitely needed. I image the built in low and high EQ could certainly be useful on your Harbinger.

 

[Ric Vice]

Invalid Link Removed emphasis added by Rick

From a 'Contrarian Gear Junkie': This may be apples and oranges, BUT, I've had a bee in my bonnet forever regarding trying a powered speaker for my DB. Absolutely couldn't refuse the 'STUPID DEAL OF THE DAY' a couple days ago (time will tell if the 'stupid' refers to me) so I bought a Harbinger Vari212 powered speaker with a 12 inch speaker and 600 peak watts and app 30 lbs.

It just arrived today and I plugged my Lifeline directly into the 1/4 inch jack in channel 1 (Even though I DO have a Headway EDB-2). Well......pleasant surprise! It DOES SOUND GREAT. I don't know what the input impedance is but if I get this 'true' a sound going straight-in I can only imagine it might be even better when I tweak it thru the EDB-2. I'm taking it on a gig tonight and will use my pre on a mic stand to give me volume (and tone) control at my fingertips without having to reach around behind the PA speaker. I'll report back after my foray into the 'real world' to let you know how it does.

 

[rickwolff]

First Gig - Loving it So Far. I'm probably a bit off-topic since this was originally an 'is pre-amp needed or can your go straight to PA' thread. I'm getting more into the 'using a powered speaker for a DB' area (MODS, feel free to move).

Played my first gig thru my 'stupid deal of the day' Harbinger V2112 600 watt 12 inch powered speaker last night (I paid $129 !!). JUST used my Lifeline and will try adding a mic tonight.

Vocalist said it was a very 'warm' sound.
Pianist said he could 'feel' the bass.
I was impressed with the evenness across the whole range. Not only volume, but tone seemed to stay consistent top to bottom. Thumb position (what little I do) was warm and clear. Bottom was full, natural, without any unrealistic exaggeration (such as I get with my 210 bass amp). So far, any 'limitations' probably have more to do with using a piezo, but I really can't and won't complain about my Lifeline. In my opinion that pu is aptly named!

The experience reminded me that sometime ago on a big band gig the pianist was running thru a K12 (and sounding great). I had my Super Flightcase (which I have since sold) and he asked to try his piano thru it. Sounded Terrible! I wonder if the frequency response curve tends to be much flatter for powered speakers than for bass amps and therefore reproduces all the harmonic complexity of a DB better than even a good bass amp. Perhaps not a fair generalization, but this seems to be my experience so far.

My memory card was almost full but I got a short clip of piano and bass from last night. My speaker was set loud enough (for a room that holds over 100) that I believe what you are hearing is perhaps 80-90% speaker and 10-20% acoustic sound from the bass. They were about an equal distance to the mic.

I'll get a better recording tonight with Lifeline in one channel and mic in the other. We'll see, but so far this is very promising indeed.

Having trouble uploading file, so here is soundcloud link:

 

[rickwolff]

SOUND CLIP OF ACOUSTIC VS LIFELINE THRU HARBINGER V2112

The recording here has the acoustic sound in one channel (identified by voice at the beginning of the track) and the other channel is the Lifeline Pickup DIRECT into my Harbinger Powered Speaker V2112. The microphones were identical cheap condenser mics run into my Zoom Z4N with the two channels balanced for volume. The PA has the bass control at about 10 o:clock and the treble at about 3. The mic is about 4 inches above the table just to the G side of the bridge. The mic on the amp is about 8 inches away from the speaker.

Again, this is DIRECT into the PA speaker with no preamp and no buffering of any kind. The amp and the bass were in separate rooms and there should be no 'cross-talk'. The acoustic sound may be a bit 'boomier' due to room acoustics.

To my ear, these sound VERY CLOSE (my bass only louder?). Having used this setup on a coupe gigs but with my pre-amp handy for volume and tone control I have been very happy with this amplification system. The ridiculous part is that this amp cost me $129 as a 'Stupid Deal of the Day' from MF. I feel I got my moneys worth and then some.

Comments/critiques are welcome (only about the sound - not about my 'noodling', please).

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